Hi Friends,
After three weeks of blogging here I am sure most of you who happen to be a regular to this blog now would have basically understood that our idea of being here is not to promote the jinogism or any hatred against a particular community. We are here because we know Kashmir and Kashmiris have suffered – regardless of his / her faith – we speak about the harsh treatment meted out to some in one way and we talk about suffering of others others in a different context. And while acknowledging that this misfortune has befallen almost every soul, who is connected to the valley in some or the other way, let us come forward and express our thoughts about each other even if at times there are highly dissenting voices from either side. Lets atleast agree to one thing – to disagree.
A friend of mine suggested that I should express my thoughts about how do we feel about the Pandits and the opinions expressed by them. So here we are and in this post of mine I will highlight why I feel the participation of Kashmiri Pandits in any discussion on Kashmir is of paramount importance.
We all know that most of the Kashmiri Pandits (either by coercion or by force or whatever you may like to call that) lost their homes and left for some of the most un-welcome places at the start of the militancy (or tehreek – you may use any word). Strangely enough Kashmiri Muslims were as confused as anyone as to what the reasons for the exodus is… Some presumed it as Jagmohan’s siyaasi-saazish while some were certain in their mind that it was the game plan for the militants to “sanitise” the land. Most of my Kashmiri Pandit friends say that they were clearly threatened with dire consequences lest they convert to the faith of the majority.
As I have mentioned earlier I am too ordinary a soul to claim that I know the whole story – but as far as my knowledge goes there were no particular threats issued from our neighborhood mosque to “convert or else“. May be the scenario in other areas was different. And now when I remember the kind of slogans that were raised at our local mosque, it seems they were not totally “innocuous”. I say that based on my personal choice. Tomorrow if majority demands that the law of the land (where I live in) be suddenly changed to suit the demands of their faith only (of which I am not a part) and this is blared endlessly from loud speakers right into my home, I think I have a reason to be paranoid. So slogans like Yahaan Kya Chalega — Nizaam-e-Mustafa (Only the rule of Prophet (PBUH) will prevail here) or Pakistan se rishta kya.. and countless others being heard time and again at every nook and corner surely would have made Kashmiri Pandits fear the worst.
I still wonder who coined these slogans and whether it was done out of a purpose or was it something which was quite instinctive. Whatever be the case, the supporters (if some one says now he never supported this is either lyeing or he was not there at that time or else he has to be a sooth-sayer) at the same time made no efforts to also highlight the concept of universal brotherhood that is enshrined in the tenets of Islam. In the absence of which Pandits had no choice but to leave. And it was not an easy choice to make. Atleast, I think that way and am open to discussing this with whosoever comes forward. Having said that, what role did the administration or any other central agencies play is something which is open to interpretation. Could they have done anything different to prevent this exodus – I am not sure they bothered, just as no one bothers about how many Kashmiris fall prey to violence on a daily basis.
I am sure that the psyche of the Kashmiri Pandits must have been under tremendous strain not only because of incessant sloganeering but also since lot of Pandits were killed at the hands of militants after being branded as mukhbir (So were countless Muslims after tagging them similarly or a more heinous version). A call by a prominent militant organisation asking gair-muslim (non-Muslims) to vacate the land did not help either though the same militant group later said it was a typo and it should have read gair-kashmiri (non-Kashmiri). To me this is has to categorise as the most costly typo in the world – more costlier than last year’s typo by a Mizuho broker.
Now coming to the main post… For me a Kashmiri Pandit is as important as any other Kashmiri Muslim whom I know or with whom I share no acquaintance. They have as much a right to decide about the future of Kashmir as we have. Even if we want, Pandits cannot simply be wished away. I can hear some murmurs pointing to the fact that when Kashmir needed to present a united face to the outside world they were simply not there; then why such clamour to join at this juncture. My response to such reasoning is that you need to first of all understand the reasons – I repeat threat coercion or whatever – why they left the place which was their own and moved to the climes which at best can be described as inhospitable. No one on the face of earth likes to be displaced from his own home to a land of uncertainities, un-welcome culture and what not.
I have been scouring for blogs by Kashmiri Pandits and I am not surprised to see varying opinions – some very blunt in their thoughts as to how they have been “let-down” by almost everyone while a few (and its not a huge majority – I must contend) do understand the pain everyone in Kashmir is going through. While there are some who are optimistic of visiting their homes in Kashmir and get settled like they used to two decades ago others are not sure they would go back even if the situation is very conducive for their return. The people who fall in the second category are among that group which is well-settled in various parts of the world and returning to Kashmir would be like starting from a scratch. For them, it could mean yet another displacement and I am not sure they would be looking ahead to that. While for others who are living in squalid conditions in refugee camps in Jammu (or elsewhere) nothing less than a return to their homes is required.
The need of the hour now is to first of all recognise Kashmiri Pandits as equal stake holders in the future of the valley. At the same time both the communities must go for self-introspection and try to understand why the things went wrong and how to correct it. Continuing to shift the blame to either side is an exercise in futility. Its not that Kashmiris have lost the guts to raise the voice against evil – For that matter we continue to do this – but either our voice is suppressed through invocation of draconian acts (of laws) or by threats from the other side. Every Kashmiri needs the space (and the freedom) to express his thoughts freely and if some one dissents that he / she may also come to the discussion table rather than resort to coercion or threat of a physical retribution.
I must mention that any discussion on the subject of Kashmir between two nuclear nations will be meaningless if the aspirations of the people who are in Kashmir are not taken into account. And at the same time, if wishes of the Kashmiri Pandits (who have left) are not considered the solution arrived at has the potential to foment more trouble. So it is essential that both India and Pakistan understand that any solution foisted on the hapless Kashmiri people may be counter-productive and so every attempt be made to make the discussions broad based. But before that intelligentsia from both the communities need to shed the communal cloak that they have put on for quite some time and look at the Kashmir as a human issue. Till the time a Kashmiri is viewed as a terrorist and Pandits thought of as Indian agents we will get absolutely nowhere.
May Almighty give each one of us the sense to understand that it is high time to set aside our differences, acknowledge the fact that we need to work together and that we start in earnest before it gets too late.
Juz A Kashmiri
well, i think the way tehreek (as KMs used to call it), started among muslims, so did migration among pandits… we believed azadi isn’t that far, and they believed it is just a matter of months before this all stops.. i guess, that is the reason for mass migration. had they realised that it will last this long, they wud have thought twice before taking such a step. I know couple of pandit families who delayed their migration and when they saw the consequences, they cancelled it. They didn’t move out of kashmir, and till this date they are there in their house. Not that it was simple for them, for that matter for their muslim neighbours also who had to provide complete security to them but they did take this decision and they are in kashmir. I am not sure of the future of kashmir, but i am certain that the love that muslims shared with pandits, and vice versa, will not diminish.
Hello,
In all my 17 years of exile have i seen a post which is almost balanced. But again i think you are just one in a billion.
The doubts among Kashmiri Pandits arise when even mainstream politicians blame KP’s and Jagmohan for the exodus. C’mon , do you believe that a population of seven hundred thousand would leave their homes to live in tents.My house was burnt in front of me, and do i have to listen to somebody to tell me why i left Kashmir.
Yesterday I was at the Tehelka summit and Mehbooba Mufti was totally talking rubbish indirectly against KP’s. She said that she does not think of Kp’s who have migrated but would plan something for those who are still in the valley.
Successive Governments have done nothing to build confidence among KP’s. They did not even get Bitta Karate convicted. He was butcher of Kashmiri Pandits. Didnt the people welcome him with garlands.
How do you expect us to believe that things have changed ,when the remorse is not there.
Kasheer, just imagine not a single person has been convicted for the killings of KP’s. What has the administration done.
I am sorry, where we did not get justice, that Kashmir is not ours.And to put on record both state govt and central govt have been indifferent to us ,not to talk of terrorist as killing us was one of their primary job.
Dear Caashurr you said, I know couple of pandit families who delayed their migration and when they saw the consequences, they cancelled it. They didn’t move out of Kashmir, and till this date they are there in their house…… well I am one of those who delayed the migration upto August 2000 and was thinking that well we got to live in our own kashir, but in the month of June or July I was told by my friends and the saner people KM’s to leave and we will see later. Well some of them did meet me later here outside Kashmir and when I asked them the reason for the fact of their advice they did say which particular person was planning to kill me and how many times we pleaded with him, this KP has nothing to do but he had only one point that for so-called azaadi, they have to kill pandits.
…. and well as people say about Jag Mohan I think he was out after May when Mirwaiz was killed, what happened after that? many KP’s were killed and KP’s had migrated. And beleieve me The situation was very vey bad in those days and at times when the crackdown would happen it was hell of life, when you get in a cross-firing it was hell of life and one thing I will write here people in those days were itself fed-up and would say diifrenet things .. just for one i was just struck in Lal chowk in cross fire and I along with a Kashmiri woman were just lying behind a heap of stones( that some one had perhaps purcahsed for constructions) then she was telling me while the firing was on… pointing to millitants….Yemav Katth Tavvnass lagg Aaseey……. those were the days…
Well today when I see backward I do not think I had many stakes except the house, had lost the meaning as a home because stones were pelted during night at the end, it was very dangerous to get out because there would be a militant there and I was not knowing but they would just think I was just as an agent there, so I would prefer not to come out of my house….
And today if the option of going back? Well what I will do there? What about the house, about job, about the settlement I made out of kashmir? About education of our children, jobs, social contacts? No I am not a optimist at this point of time? And the bigger question will future be secure and some other generation has to get uprooted once again …. No the options are not right for a prudent KP
Anoop,
First of all thanks for visiting our blog. This blog belongs to you as much as it does to us for its named as Kasheer (How Kashmiris refer to their birthplace in local parlance) and without any suffix to make it the exclusive domain of one community. You have made your point in the most lucid manner and I must say that your point-of-view is not entirely incorrect. In fact in some of the points you have raised I cannot agree more.
I must say it must be really nerve-wracking to hear it from someone that you were next on the list even if this reality dawns on you hundreds of miles away. That is the time when you start to question the motives of the persons who were “after” you and any level of persuasion will not help change the mindset. We all agree that this bloodshed has not helped anyone – As a matter of fact, after seventeen years of turmoil we may be financially quite well-off but, we have lost our most important asset – that is the mental peace and trust in each other.
However, I am sure there is light at the end of this dark tunnel – It may take some more time but it won’t be too late before we yet again celebrate the arrival of the dawn; Dawn which heralds the arrival of peace and our new found belief in Kashmiriyat after years of darkness. Aameen.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri ,
To be honest , you make me a moderate in my expression. This is a honest confession and probably a true behavior of a Pandit who gets influenced very fast.
I am not doubting your concern or your identity, but the way you had written to me or you have handled few things does not help me change my overall views. I would just say that you may be just one in a billion. And i know a one in a billion can not controll the millions of hawks.
To be honest , i do not mind losing my modest house , neither anything else. What i miss is giving my child a Kashmiri Identity.
Those cruel minds and hands have stolen our thousand of years of culture , our identity. I can forgive anyone for burning my house ,but not making me a refugee.
I dont have my idols in temple, where do i worship ?
And you havent yet told me of how many of those in Kashmir have even called to punish those who killed Kashmiri Pandits ?
Why is Yasin Mailk free ? Why do people follow Yasin malik ? As per Bitta Karates confession he was given order by JKLF heads to kill pandits . And i see people following these “heads”.
Do you still think Kashmiriat existed ? No, it was a cover up !
Please let me remember my pain , i do not want to forget the genocide . I do not have hatred towards any individual , but i do hate the terrorists which are called Mujahids by the majority.
The day we forget our pain, we will be Kashmiris no more and would be just another in the crowd.
God Bless .
Well Anoop,
I am a little lost. Were you there in kashmir till Aug 2000. I hope it is typo.
As to Pawanji, the population of kashmir is less than a billion… So, u shud revise ur ratio of 1 in billion. (it is a joke!!!)
As for me, i dont care what KPs think about kashmir or kashmiri muslims. Why should i give heed to that. But, what is wrong is wrong. KPs were killed in early 90’s and nobody can deny the fact. I have to be stupid if i deny that fact. Well, being young at the time, i recall few so called mujahids of the time, who were none but _tchooorrr_ (theives) before they took to arms. I dont have to say what was expected of them. And i do know few others, who were just opposite. It was a mix…
Juz. A. Kashmiri,
It is nice of you that you have started this discussion about Kashmiri Pandits. It seems you are trying to be the voice of so-called moderate muslims. It is appreciable that you do recognize that the Kashmiri Pandits cannot be just wished away. After all, Kashmiri Pandits are the real and original inhabitants of the valley. The valley belonged to Kashmiri Pandits when the religion of Islam did not even exist. So you are absolutely right that Kashmiri Pandits need to and will have a say in the future of Kashmir.
But I would tend to agree with PawanDurani that it is not going to be easy for Kashmiri Pandits to forget and forgive those actions or inactions of Kashmiri Muslims when Kashmiri Pandits were getting killed mercilessly in the valley in late 80s and 90s. Kashmiri Pandits have seen the gruesome brutalities first hand. As Pawan mentioned, it is the loss of homeland, culture and heritage that Kashmiri Pandits are mad about. “Houses” can always be rebuilt…..”Homes” cannot be rebuilt. “Houses” are made of bricks, sand and cement. “Homes” are made of trust, love, compassion, values, culture and heritage. Unless and until Muslims show sincere and honest remorse and publicly apologize, it would be impossible for the trust to be rebuilt. Unless and until Muslims in the valley raise their voice against the terrorism, this menace is not going to go away. For Kashmiri Pandits to come back and live a life of freedom, dignity and honor, the muslims in the valley have to create an atmosphere of trust. And they very well know how that atmosphere can be created because they are the ones who wrecked it in the first place.
Keep discussing….Happy discussion…
Sharnarthi.
Pawan,
I can tell you one thing; In the last 17 years of the strife – and I have been in Kashmir during the most tumultuous times of the last two decades – I have grown up from a scenario where everyone used to treat militants as God-send to the time when a sizable chunk felt it safe to maintain a safe distance from them. We have seen many upheavals during these years and we have seen repeated massacres (on either side), crackdowns at unearthly hours (mind you even during day-time crack down has been a nightmarish experience), identification parades (where the blaring of a horn was a matter of life and death), cross-firing, grenade attacks, IED blasts and what not. Without taking sides I want to convey here that the trials and tribulations have certainly not made us numb and we are still ready to face what is coming our way.
I do acknowledge that what Kashmiri Pandits underwent, in terms of loss of their culture and identity, is a collosal damage which is difficult to be reversed so easily. But at the same point of time I am pretty sure you’d agree that Kashmiri Muslims too are not themselves responsible for what they have had to bear. Why I say that is because the armed struggle in 1989 was a culmination of so many wrong-doings of successive governments both at the central and the state level. Rigging in ‘87 polls was just the proverbial ‘last straw which broke camel’s back’.
Pawan Sb I am really surprised you are asking the questions rather than contribute to the feeling of togetherness that we want for each other… You have come up with your list, I’d love to come up with mine; but it will not serve my purpose and indeed has the potential to defeat it. So I wont be react in kind.
To me what is most important is the belief in our Holy Qur’an which mentions in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). Need I say more, the murderer of an innocent human being is definitely looked down upon by me like every Muslim who believes in the life hereafter. This is a matter of faith and you cannot question that.
But what has disappointed me the most is the fact that you do not want to forget the “genocide”. I hate to quantify the loss of human lives but I think you may have to coin one more term for the way in which ordinary Kashmiri Muslims have fallen prey to bullets from both the sides. I just pray that Kashmiri Muslims do intend to forget the bloodshed otherwise the end to this suffering is not in sight.
Juz A Kashmiri
Somehow, my fellow Kps here have expressed my feelings about the issue.
It is a nice post, but what is it supposed to achieve. It’s truly a nice post for ‘tolerant’ Pandits but there aren’t many of the tribe left. 17 years have hardened them enough, made them ‘insensitive’, as you would say.
It has no meaning to pissed off Pandit or for that matter to a pissed off Km. However, to give it real meaning why don’t you come up with a real critique of your society and the Tahreek( as you call it).
Frankly, if you think Pandits would return to An Independent Kashmir, you are delusional .And so would be we.
You say that your people didn’t speak out that time around. Well, you aren’t truly speaking out now.
Caashurr talked about ‘tchooorrr’ and the ‘other type’ of people. Why don’t you name out the Tchooorrrs? There is a chance that you would be branded Pro-India and become a Pariah among your own people. People like you are never in control of things. The silence of the ‘other type’ strengthened the ‘tchooorrrs’. Somehow, ‘the other type’ thought that their objectives were the same as the ‘tchooorrs’. That’s what I meant when I said that you people were misled and are still being misled.
Always the wrong kinds of people keep representing you.
As for Pandits, I am not that worried. Pandits have a history of moving in and out of Kashmir. I have no doubt a lot of us would be back. I just hope people in Kashmir recognize a Pandit and not forget about him. That too is not possible thanks to interactions like these and due to the vast number of mobile KM people. Somewhere, a KM would keep meeting a KP in an awkward, friendly or cruel manner and both would have their own version of the events of that decade and their own anguished life story on the lips or written on the heart .
Hi Sharnarthi
First of all I welcome you to this blog and I pray that very soon there are good reasons for you to change this name.
Now let us come to your comments – valuable ones indeed even if they do not conform to the view I have. Before I continue, let me say that I am not interested in being the voice of moderate Muslim. I am sure there are countless others much better than me who even after suffering countless number of times during this strife are willing to move ahead and not remain buried in past. I am just one of those who know this medium and am sharing my thoughts here. Some others do not have access to this medium and so their thoughts remain within themselves.
You believe that Kashmiri Pandits have a right to decide the future of Kashmir just because centuries ago Pandits were the “original inhabitants” of Kashmir. I simply cannot agree less with this logic of yours. My point-of-view is based more on the situation that existed till recently and not where we originally came from. If one has to take your logic and extrapolate it; it would mean that Kashmiri Muslims should have no say in deciding about their own fate. Won’t that be a travesty of justice? Aren’t you communalising the problem which has been something Kashmiri Muslims have been accused of?
You are not ready to forget the pain and you want to live with that for ever. May I ask you, if a father who has lost his son to a “custodial disappearance” and if a mother whose sun fell prey to the bullets during cross-firing can forget the pain and move-on I wonder why do some of us still want to remain buried in past. If a wailing wife can wipe her tears and for the sake of her own children can continue to wait for the best to come her way I wonder what is stopping someone whose damage is limited to his culture and heritage and may be property as well.
You say “Houses can always be rebuilt but not homes”… I would say you may be able to restore the heritage, undo the damage to the culture, build houses make homes out of them but can you tell me a way to get back a sister’s brother who was picked up and then finished off in an “encounter”. Can you suggest a way to wipe an aged mother’s tears by giving back her son who was killed just on the suspicion of being a Pak-trained militant and later turned otherwise. Mind you no trials no evidence similar to the way militants finished off their adversaries. Doesn’t that make the pain so similar?
A gesture of reconciliation from Kashmiri Muslims should not be considered as a sign of weakness or remorse or being apologetic. We have seen our lives becoming hell but we are ready to forget the past in the hope that the future holds for every Kashmiri a promise – a promise that we won’t see each other with even an iota of distrust or hatred.
And what makes you think that Kashmiri Muslims need to publicly apologize for – For losing 80,000 lives to the bloodshed which is still on or for the atrocities that have been heaped on them day-in and day-out. Or for the humiliating search where three security personnel have their fingers on the trigger just in case.. Just in case there is a mistake a tag is ready and so is the reward and the promotion and numerous ’sound-bytes’ on 24X7 TV news channels.
If we all want to make the atmosphere conducive for the normalcy to return then first of all we have to make sure that we do not continue living in the past. Let us look ahead to the future – or else the choice is yours -
Phir na kehna humein khabar nahin thii
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri,
I love your last line. Is that a threat or an olive branch?
I must have touched some sensitive nerve out there. Can you go back and re-read my first post and tell me where did I say that Muslims will not have a say in the future of Kashmir? Yes, I said Kashmiri Pandits will have a say in the future of Kashmir. Does that automatically mean that Kashmiri Muslims will not have a say in the future of Kashmir? Is it mutually exclusive deal? Or is that how you guys think?
Also, before you go on comparing the atrocities inflicted upon your sisters and mothers or my sisters and mothers, let me ask you one very simple question?
When did a Kashmiri Hindu kill or inflicted injury to a Kashmiri Muslim? Show me just one example.
Your comparison of atrocities inflicted by Security forces and atrocities inflicted by terrorists on Kashmiri Hindus is a losing argument. If Kashmiri Muslims’ fight was against so-called occupation, why did they have to kill Kashmiri Hindus? What was Kashmiri Hindus’ fault? Just because they belonged to a different religion? Just because they believed in Indian Tri-Color? Why did terrorists kill Kashmiri Hindus? Did any of you guys come out openly in the streets and demand justice for Kashmiri Hindus and/or condemn the selective killings of Kashmiri Hindus? NO. Absolutely NOT.
Even today, when Hurriyat met with Kashmiri Hindu Refugees in Jammu (even though I believe that was a facade’ and drama) and requested them to come back, very next day 4 major terrorist outfits (HUJI and three others) threatened Kashmiri Pandits and declared that Kashmiri Pandits cannot ever come back. Did you or for that matter any Kashmiri Muslim condemn their threat and speak against them? Would you stand up against their threats and declare here on your BLOG and every major newspaper published from the Valley that you are against their threats and you condemn their actions and you welcome Kashmiri Hindus back in the valley unconditionally? Would you? Would you stand up for what you believe in? Would you put your money where your mouth is?
Or is it just another drama you want to play in the cyberworld?
As you said, choice is yours.
Sharnarthi
Dear Sharnarthi,
No its neither a threat (for I even hate the word having lived under threats for long now) nor an olive branch (for I am not sure we are in such a state to even offer that). It is just to make each one of us aware let us not let the opportunity to pass by, let us not delay working to set things right.
Atrocities are atrocities under which ever flag and banner they are inflicted. We never mean that Kashmiri Pandits were or are responsible for the massacre of the majority in Kashmir. We never want to compare what you underwent with what we have seen. Both KMs and KPs suffered and that is the reality. Justifying killing of KPs is something no one should do and no KM ever justified that – it was just a moment of madness when such things happened and somehow no one complained – Please read my earlier post “Deaths – but we are insensitive” Isn’t that a complain against the killing of innocents regardless of faith.
I do not know what I as an individual can or cannot do, but I can tell you deep in my heart there is a feeling that whatever Kashmiirs have gone through and are still continuiing to suffer should come to a stop now. Enough of bloodshed, enough of atrocities.
My money is always in my pocket and I don’t think money matters but yes if there is any injustice being carried out in whatever garb I condemn it – may be my platform is not big enough for you to notice. You may call it a drama in they cyberworld; I feel its a beginning of a new era – an era where we would end all this hatred but cannot do so without selfless support from everyone.
Choice is not mine; Choice has to be made by everyone.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz a Kashimri,
A very interesting and much needed post. Constrain of time does not allow me to take part in the discussion but I hope to sometime.
Hi Kashmir
Nice to see you here… You seem to have been really busy.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri ,
Firstly i would like to congratulate you for trying to be balanced.
However I would just ask you one thing . You said ,”Why I say that is because the armed struggle in 1989 was a culmination of so many wrong-doings of successive governments both at the central and the state level.”
Dont you think you are justifying the insurgency and terrorism.
Had this been the case , i believe that Kashmiri pandits should have had enuf justification to pick up guns.
I request you ,kindly,not to justify the terrorism.
Secondly , the impression of 80000 deaths is just an imposed one. No data can justify this. If you calculate it would give you almost 15 Kashmiris killed each day in kashmir.
Thats just not true.
Pawan
http://www.thekashmir.wordpress.com
Well Caashurr not a typo it was a nightmare and perhaps is. I have seen many situations in the time and believe me today I think I was a fool I roamed on the streets in that period upto August 1990. Killing of KP’s were taking place in different places.
Just to tell you my experiences, a couple of them. One of my friends did advise me that it will be better that I do not stare at people for because they will take it that this is an informer. On day with this notion in mind I was just walking towards my home and someone asked me what is the time, I said it was 4.00 pm and I did not see into his face. He just scolded me as to why I am not looking eye in eye because he too had doubts by not seeing eye to eye. So we were living in a world of suspicion.
Another one I was just walking towards my home and I saw some CRPF men close to my house on a wide street with pointing guns, I just made hurriedly to my home and went up the third story to know what the matter was and looked for an eye-piece view from a window. Just from inside I saw a woman in Burqa lying in a pool of blood on road, I was just frightened to see if men roam in Burqa these days. After some time some policemen came took some photo and put that body into a police truck and the cordon was gone. The next day I learnt in news papers that this Kashmiri Muslim woman was labeled as an informer and shot dead. What a place I was in I was thinking? We had so much of respect for woman in Kashmir and then what was this? Events were building in front of our eyes and my mind telling, say I quit?
One more. One day I went to have a hair cut and then I was waiting for the turn, and the barber told me that it will take some time and you may come later, he was on job on some person in chair. I said no problem I will wait because I would now be second in queue. Now the person who was having a hair cut began to ask me, what is your name? where you live, I did tell him I just live near by and just kept my attention towards a paper lying nearby. Suddenly he shot a question to me why I did not leave Kashmir? What I am doing here? Why I am there? I did not want to get into argument. I was just thinking to answer him and suddenly other shopkeeper came to have a hair-cut and when he saw me, he said ok it will take me some time let both of us go & come later. After a month or so I was reading the news paper, there was the news that a top militant commander was killed and when I saw his photo on the page, my mind said to me I have seen him some-where and then My mind directed me to the above event. Now I was joining the events together? So if something happened to this man may be suspicion falls on me? So these are the real stories left behind, I simply laugh when people blame persons but the events on ground are ignored that were totally different.
KP have suffered and Muslims have also suffered. But what was the reason that I was targeted? Living in motherland was a crime?
And juz Kashmiri I do not have an ill will towards KM today, as we have heard from wise men in Kashmir itself, God blocks a way but he opens thousand others? We also were told that it is one’s duty to protect his life if you feel in danger. I have not done anything wrong; KP’s have not done anything wrong. I did not have the courage to take anything from my home as I said it was late August 1990 because there were cases in June, July when KP fleeing with luggage were gunned down. Winter of 90-91 I had no sweater, no quilt nothing but today Thanks To God we have every-thing and how the people looted my house and who were they I came to know later and how they were killed one by one that also I know. Those living today, God will deliver Justice to them Himself.
Having said this, the fact is that Muslims have also suffered worse than this. I know when people were killed near Hawal Firdous Cinema; they were buried without informing their near and dear ones by militants. People had gone out after lunch and at 5.00 PM their wives get the news that they were killed and buried also. What a shock? Was this a place to live in? When firing took place in Gowkadal at the same time ambulances from Soura institute were sent to Radio Station & Doordarshan to blow them off and militants in them were killed. Mob push on the streets what was needed as part strategy, but people were not aware. People were killed? This is also a fact not known to many.
The bigger logic is that will there be not suffering when people kill each other, a thing which was not in Kashmir previously? And who is to be blamed? Scars do take time to heal but then the scar is to be left un-scratched, but will it be done? I do not think so? How many generations have to suffer in future as I said it before? That is what the bigger question is.
To end it but Yes I agree Kashmir Should be what it was, but will that Happen? Many scars are there, some may heal some may not. GOD only knows what is in store, we can only pray to HIM.
Juz A Kashmiri,
You still have not answered my question: “Why were Kashmiri Pandits killed in the valley?”
Please do not insult Kashmiri Pandits and their intelligence by saying that it was all done in a moment of madness. You might have good intentions but you are trying to cover up the terrorism and are trying to somehow justify it and/or rationalize it.
If you sincerely want this dialog to occur, you first need to accept the fact that Kashmiri Hindus were targeted and killed because they were Hindus and terrorists wanted to establish Nizam-e-Mustafa in the valley.
You still have not given me an example wherein a Kashmiri Hindu had hurt and/or killed a Kashmiri Muslim. All I am asking is one example.
And please do not hide behind these blogs. I asked you to stand up and condemn the threats that are issued by HUJI and their associates in major newspapers like Greater Kashmir in the valley. Why wouldn’t you do that? If you can write so much on the blog, you sure can write a letter to the editor of Greater Kashmir. Why wouldn’t you stand up and declare that you whole-heartedly welcome back Kashmiri Hindus into the valley, without any conditions?
You mentioned that back in those days, “somehow no one complained”. I am asking you to change that and stand up and complain openly NOW. What is stopping you from doing that? Do you want your son to repeat your words 15 years later and say “somehow no one complained”?
Think about it.
Sharnarthi
Juz A Kashmiri,
Check it out
Link DeletedWould you stand up against these Fatwas?
OR
Would you ignore it for now and wait for another day?
Choice is yours.
Sharnarthi
Sharnarthi,
Sorry but as has been the norm, we are forced to delete any comments which has unverified links.
I would like to re-iterate that this deletion of link may not be construed as an attempt to stop others from listening to your point-of-view. The comment has bee modified to ensure that the blog is not reduced to a mere place for publishing links. We want feedback (positive or negative) from all sections.
Request all contributors to refrain from posting just links. This forum is to share thoughts. Even if you want the readers to visit some other site; please provide with a basic idea of what we are talking about.
This moderation is also required in order to prevent spamming or similar activities. Hope you all share the same concern.
Juz A Kashmiri
Anoop,
At last I am relieved after reading your posts that I wont have to deal with only those who are not willing to move ahead. I surely can count upon you as one of the optimists. Mind you as I was reading this I felt a chill down my spine – I happened to recall all those gory days when people were being killed without any logic or reason. mind you all that was needed was a tag – A tag which either had pro-Pakistan or pro-Indian as a suffix like mukhbir, gaddar, aatankwaadi, uggarwaadi and what not.
At the same time I appeal to everyone to not treat this blog as something which is a creation of a person who is here to prove that Pandits are themselves responsible for their state. Please read my earlier posts as well.
Pawan,
The debate about how successive governments contributed to the problem called Kashmir is a never ending one. You may like to stick to your view point while the person on the other end of the spectrum may like to differ very strongly from what your ideas are. So it is not going to be of any use. The truth is Pandits were rendered homeless and Muslims lost almost everything. Besides I am not the one who is justifying violence of any kind, for you won’t be able to figure out how much we have lost. I can also quote examples of my loved ones who fell prey to this bloodshed all in the name of security. But that would only increase the grief and not lessen in any manner. So I would refrain.
You have raised a doubt about the number of lives I quote have been lost. Does it matter? I mean even a single innocent person is killed to me is more brutal than anything. So does it really matter … whether it is 80,000 or 8,000 or even 800. We never ask anyone to provide the statistics for the number of Pandits killed – for that would be foolish to do. You know and I know innocent civilians were killed and we don’t need a figure to substantiate the fact that it was inhuman.
Sharnarthi,
What makes you think I am insulting Pandits when I say they were killed in a “moment of madness”. For I don’t think a saner mind would resort to such things. And what makes you think that if my thoughts, which I have presented here, would appear genuine only if I publish them in a reputed news paper from the valley. These are my views about the impact of this armed struggle and I am not sure I can convince everyone to agree. I can only express them and so I am. If you think criticising a militant organisation is a solution to this problem and can help us in achieving something positive, I am sorry to say you are missing the wood for the trees.
I am sure next time you would try to be rational rather than demanding do this and do that. I am an ordinary soul and I don’t think I need a certificate from anyone to declare me peace-loving or otherwise.
Hope that convinces you… But I have a feeling it won’t since you have let your thoughts to be clouded by all the hate propaganda against KMs and if you let that continue we will be indulging in something called a zero-sum game. You will be able to score a point somewhere and I would try to counter that somewhere else.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz a Kashmiri ,
I am not usre of what link have you deleted, it it was a threat letter by HUJI very recently , then i have something to say.
Yeah, I too agree that a innocent life lost if important and it is not the numbers. Else the mathematics is quite simple subject for Kashmiris.
Lastly, do you still have a hope of an average kashmiri muslim standing upto a terrorist ? Do you see them condemning Bitta Karate. Didnt even top people reconcile with their fathers killers like Maulvi Omar Farooq or Sajjad Lone ? They are in politics. Kashmiri pandits are not.
As I said, even my Temples were not spared . Check out my Temple by clicking here
or you may even delink it for the sake of verification.I wud just repeat , you are the only sane one i have come across in last 17 years.
Pawan Sb,
No your link stays because you have provided the context in which you want to provide us with the information.
The link that I had deleted was from Mr. Sharnarthi. It was about some militant organisation objecting to a school. Now, need I say that is not the topic of this post. So that link is not highly relevant to me.
Juz A Kashmiri
Hi Vinayak,
First of all, do you think i could have said a word about that _tchooorrr_.. Dont you think i would have found myself in the pool of blood. Somebody did write that a burqa clad woman was killed in cold blood and labelled mukhbir. I wud have really hated to be labelled mukhbir. thanks, but no thanks. Secondly, i am not worried about kashmiri muslims anymore. Believe me, they are doing very well and they dont need a certificate from kashmiri pandits for that.
As for sharnarthi, u will stay like that..”a sharnarthi”… You like to live in your past, and you will have hard time getting out of it. I am sorry for you.. I really am. …
Having written all this, i will say that what happened with kashmiri pandits was not good.. Shouldn’t have happened.. and what i am surprised to see is not a single blog, not a single pandit ever writing a single word about atrocities in kashmir… not that i care about what they write, … but wonder, if they like kashmiri people getting killed like that..
Caashurr
Caashurr,
I surely agree with some of the points that you have made particularly about raising a voice about innocent killings at the height of the turmoil. Mind you don’t mistake it as lack of courage – Those who feel an individual is being wronged don’t choose to remain quiet for fear of being harmed. But the silence is to ensure that their loved ones do not have to face any kind of retribution. There have been countless instances where instead of targetting an individual directly his family / dear ones have been made soft targets by persons sitting on either side of the fence.
I also agree with his comments that whatever happened with Kashmiri Pandits should not have happened and unfortunately Kashmiri Muslims too have gone through something which has made their lives hell.I
My sincere request to all – Please do not hurt sentiments of Kashmiri people (Muslims or Pandits) by suggesting that it has been their own doing and they are reaping what they had sown. My intention here is not to appease Kashmiri Pandits or to champion the cause of Kashmiri Muslims but I am just trying to repeat trying to make each one of us understand the situation in its proper perspective.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri,
Yes, you are right. That link was not relevant to you. Isn’t that what you said? “So that link is not highly relevant to me.”
Why’s wasn’t that link relevant to you? Because it talked about how Hizb is theatening locals not to attend Delhi Public School in Srinagar. Isn’t that what the atmosphere was when Kashmiri Pandits were asked to “Ya Ralev, Ya Chaliv, Ya Galiv”? And wasn’t the discussion that how local Muslims kept quiet and did not stand up against that? Wasn’t the discussion how you need to stand up against such forces and only then a conducive atmosphere for Kashmiri Pandits’ return can be created?
I am getting more and more convinced that your intentions are not sincere. If you had sincere intentions, you would have answered my question which you have so far dodged and I will once again ask you the same question:
“Why were Kashmiri Pandits killed in the valley?”
Answer honestly and I would know how sincere you are.
It tells a lot when you call this “armed struggle”. Struggle for what? Establishing Nizam-e-Mustafa in a land which ALSO belongs to Kashmiri Pandits?
Why wouldn’t you call it Terrorism? Any particular reason?
Take care
Sharnarthi
Sharnarthi Sb,
I am sorry to say but a little info on the link could have helped. As a matter of fact there was one more link provided by Pawan Sb along with the context. So that never went away – it still stays.
Regarding the link that you have provided (and strangely provided with the context only now) I must say that we will never be on the side of those who interfere in things like education for our children and who want to be keen to decide for us.
Now coming back to your question “Why were Pandits killed?”. I am sorry to say but we all have expressed regret at that and feel very bad about it. As I have already mentioned in my earlier comment; Its easy for you to question me and I also need answers for certain things but that would do no good to either of us. Do you still want to continue, I am sorry but I am not looking forward to that.
You want to term this “armed struggle” as terrorism someone else might say “freedom struggle” but tell me does it make any difference – on ground Kashmiris continue to face the brunt from either side. I never wanted to glorify the killings in valley so I thought I have chosen a term which doesn’t sound bad to either of the two communities.
Sometimes I have a feeling you jump the gun – and don’t read the comments with a clear mind. So I am forced to paste my last comments here once again.
My intention here is not to appease Kashmiri Pandits or to champion the cause of Kashmiri Muslims but I am just trying to repeat trying to make each one of us understand the situation in its proper perspective.
You want to question our sincerity – please go ahead doubt it or trust us do whatever you like.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz a Kashmiri ,
I would not believe the justification provided the blog “kashmir” , as i know that few of us wanted to travel to Mattan. One of our friend went to collect the letter from Post Box and received the letter with Kashmir stamp.
Anyway, there are other threats , which if you wish , i could upload on the blog.
As for Cashurr saying a Sharnathi would remain a sharnathi, i must say that staying a sharnathi is a better option than being threatened , feeling insecure . Atleast we are free to parctise our faith in our own way.
It is not that i do not feel bad for even a Kashmiri Muslim dying . We feel bad. Even that person is a son of a mother. But then i look it at a human way. Had average Kashmiri rebelled against terrorim , they would not have suffered. I recall people rejoicing , garlanding men with guns.
Now if the same haunts them back, how can a KP help.It is a tragedy which was in offing.
Even today if a person dies in cross fire , i do not see anyone blaming terrorists for lobbing a grenda,infact they would blame the security forces.
Why cant people see the fact and accept it ?
And by not doing that arent they making their own life more miserable ?
Pawan Durani
Pawan’s Blog – The Kashmir
Pawan,
As I had mentioned at your blog – I am not sure about who wrote the letter – it could be anyone. But it doesn’t matter for one needs to feel secure rather than trust any assurances or get dissuaded by threats (which may or may not be bogus).
You are right when you say that people don’t complain against innocent civilians being killed (by whosoever). To me the reason is that we are really insensitive to the happenings in Kashmir. You may like to read this post
Juz A Kashmiri
This comment will be deleted soon as it contains some ir-relevant matter. I am sure my friends will agree.
The Last Toast
.
Whether we like it or not,
We have only three choices:
Yesterday, today and tomorrow.
And not even three
Because as the philosopher says
Yesterday is yesterday
It belongs to us only in memory:
From the rose already plucked
No more petals can be drawn.
The cards to play
Are only two:
The present and the future.
And there aren’t even two
Because it’s a known fact
The present doesn’t exist
Except as it edges past
And is consumed…,
like youth.
In the end
We are only left with tomorrow.
I raise my glass
To the day that never arrives.
But that is all
we have at our disposal.
~Nicanor Parra~
Vinayak,
I would like to request every one here to publish only content which is relevant to the post being discussed.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK and Cashurr’ here raised a question – as to why there are not any blogs from Pandits supporting the cause of Kashmiri Muslims and expressing sorrow at the happenings in Kashmir.
I am not sure if there are none – and like Cashurr’ said, wouldn’t matter either. Wonder if some of you are old enough to remember, there was a so-called Pandit leader who was in the valley even after the bulk of exodus had happened – supporting the so-called movement. This fellow Wanchoo was gunned down by the very people he was apparently supporting. Practically it doesn’t matter what Pandit’s think or support – when it comes to the cause of majority – for the simple reason that the numerically we dont matter – and thus politically too we have been rendered dispensible…
So – its obvious that a community which has got so marginalized owing to lack of its political value and being a dispensible minority, would obviously focus all its energy and mindshare in its own plight and suffering, rather than fight someone elses cause – ’cause’ which in first place was the reason for its own suffering, for no mistake of his own.
Well, if it does matter to anyone – I for one will sincerely and whole-hearted share here that I do feel pain and agony at the hapless killings, the sinful aura and the gloom of pain that rules the valley today. Killings – custodial or targetted, bombs – at pickets or gatherings, disappearances – by arrests or border crossings, widows – scarred by army bullet or by the grenade from a terrorist – are all despicable and painful to any human. As someone pointed out in one of the posts, Kashmir was a (relatively) peaceful place till before 1989… where a woman could go out even late at night, where one didnt see daggers drawn to resolve arguments (hurling a kangri would do)… It was somewhat close, if not an absolute picture – of the proverbial paradise.
That condemnation done…. A Kashmiri Pandit still wonders:
What on earth happened overnight in the valley – that the face of my neighbour changed suddenly? Was I in comatose for some unknown period – not to see this coming? Or have I been cheated by the neighbour who had been conspiring for so long, sending his kith-kin across the border to get trained in aiming his gun at me when he returns? And he is today holding me responsible for his agony – for not supporting him in his demands – demands which he was conspiring for behind my back – demands which I don’t agree to at all.
If his son died in the ambush at the border – his kith are saluting him as a mujahid, a shaheed. He died for some cause – even though I don’t understand what his cause was – nor relate to that cause. But why was my brother killed? He had no demands, no cause, no claims. He didn’t get trained to hurt anyone. He didn’t come to kill or steal anything.
He eulogized the terrorists; he invited them home and thought they were His messiahs. He made a mistake and pushed my dear valley into a period of war and strife… and where there is war – overt or covert, there will be death, pain, sorrow and agony. But why was this pain and agony in my share – I didn’t invite any terrorist, I didn’t want a war, I didn’t want a messiah… I just wanted to live a simple straight life… a life which my neighbour just high-jacked.
My kith-kin got killed at hands of terrorists – just because I don’t pray in the same mosque as his, just because I didn’t agree with the cause he was motivated for, just cause I still loved my land and tri-colour. My kith was branded a mukhbir and killed in cold-blood, and he applauded the killer – calling him a Mujahid. Last month, he welcomed and garlanded this killer in those very streets… and yet expects me to empathize with his pain. Did he really ever share my pain? Never, beyond lip-service. If he really had, he wouldn’t have garlanded that black-belt killer…
Yes, there 0.5 million army there has done many a wrongs – I am willing to believe all that… it would happen in any war zone. But I didn’t invite that 0.5 million army there… did I? He himself did… when he called in thousands of terrorists from the other side of border. Did I do either of these acts? Why on earth am I the culprit then?
What justifies my pain then…?
-A Soul in Exile
PS: JAK, thanks for your comments on my blog – and yeah I will respond to them one day. Unfortunately, personal circumstances have forced me into a hiatus right now… I even read my blog-roll after weeks today…
And to take a cue from your art of commenting, I guess I too might just convert this comment into a post on my blog. Actually, as I write this comment here, I still am not sure if this will get published – since I refuse to give an email address. Not sure why its so important to you…
I wish i could have xpressed it any better than what “Soul In Exile” wrote
Dear Soul in Exile,
Your comment is surely one which you should post on your blog too. And I am not being sarcastic – not even in the least. Even if I do not agree with comments of yours entirely, I still welcome diverse opinions on this blog for then only would this blog be reflective of the real situation.
But what disappointed me the most was the way you have introduced this post on your blog as “one-sided” and “half-painted”. Can you please tell me what makes you think it is a one-sided view. Is it because I tried to exonerate Pandits from conspiracy theories or Is it because I acknowledged the fear they were living in. I am sorry to say sometimes I feel blogs like yours are meant to create misunderstanding.
Merely having KMs comment on this blog would defeat my purpose which I would hate. Keep your thoughts coming, we have to learn a lot from each other, but please don’t disagree with us just for the heck of it.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK ,
Nothing to feel emotional about. Disagreements are just a part of our heritage.
I apprecaite your giving links to Kashmir blogs throu “Kasheer” , but what made me think was non linking of other side of story.I know you will understand what I mean.
God Bless
Yes Pawan,
That is why I have published my email address on the blog. Those of you who would like to have their blog links on the blogroll, even if their view point doesn’t match with mine, I would not deny them the same.
As far as linking the other side of story is concerned, the first link that appears – Bloggers Kashmir is again a blog (owned by one respected Pandit) and where some of us are contributing along with others. I am sure you would like to check that link now. I am going ahead and publishing your link in the blog roll. If you would wish otherwise please let me know.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
Thanx for the link . Are you based in Kashmir ?
Brother, if you don’t understand the relevance of those verses to the topic, then I have been wasting my time on this blog. Did you read it or just stopped after reading the words ‘Last Toast’. Do I have to provide the context of each line in the poem to the topic? Why did it bother you at all?
It’s message is clear-Prepare for the future, hopefully a better future.
As you wrote-
“May Almighty give each one of us the sense to understand that it is high time to set aside our differences, acknowledge the fact that we need to work together and that we start in earnest before it gets too late.”
How was my post out of context? Did I put a question like-Do you believe in Darwin’s Theory of Origin? Now, this topic (I hear it was a cause of much friction in the Kashmir University during old days) would be out of context.
In addition, stop following the thump rule about Spamming. Show some sense and sensibility also some sensitivity. In case, some one puts a link a link to something and does not mention the nature of the link, being the owner of the blog, you check the nature of the link (Whether it’s a spam or stuff like that) and not the political nature of the content. If someone puts a link that is out of context, trust in other people to challenge his point of view. Removing the link makes people question your integrity. Exercise the option of removal only in extreme case. I know we are discussing a lot of stuff under the topic. In fact, we have been discussing a lot of varied stuff here.
For example- Sharnarthi put a link that he thought was totally in context. He did give the nature of the content by saying-“Would you stand up against these Fatwas?”
Show some sense, is that spamming? You should have questioned his opinion.
Instead, you removed the link, and then proceeded to give you opinion about the content of the link. Aren’t we here to discuss things…controversial things? Are you trying to build a bridge or a brigade of ‘Yes ministers’? The point should be to interact with those who don’t agree with you and not keep agreeing with people you already agree with. If everyone agrees to you then there is no problem to discuss. Let people read that also and give their honest opinions, as you did. Instead of making the link disappear, you should have made it a separate post. You want to keep things ‘nice and easy’ when the issue isn’t nice and easy. This makes it what SIE called Lip service. Sorry, we don’t need that and am sure nobody wants that.
Kashmiri Pandits and their significance
The name of the topic itself is inappropriate and let me say ‘insensitive’. What are we supposed to discuss under it?
The point should not be ‘significance of Kashmiri Pandits’; the point should be opinion of Kashmiri Pandits and Kashmiri Muslims. Trying to see where we differ in opinion and where we see eye to eye (if we do, at all). For that, all type of opinion should be welcome and be put to questioning.
Now, you can continue to discuss about the ‘significance’ of Kashmiri Pandits akin to the significance of Street lamp in a Dark Alley.
(P.S: If I need to explain the context every time, then this is going to be a real drag. So please, be a more flexible and logical next time, i.e. if there is a next time. Thanks for visiting my blog and no need to thank me (i.e. if you feel like that). Enough of the pleasantries. Real change means tackling really unpleasant topics.)
Dear Vinayak,
I tell you I am really happy that I started this blog – around 20 days ago – because I have learnt so much about Kashmiris in such a short span of time that it may have taken ages to discern otherwise. At the outset let me admit the fact that I am not so good at my writing skills so may be sometimes I might not be able to put across my view point as I want to.
Now let me come to your comments and my reaction to some of the points you have highlighted. To put it in context I will quote your lines before I comment on them
Brother, if you don’t understand the relevance of those verses to the topic, then I have been wasting my time on this blog.
Talking about the poem you had put as a comment on this blog, I’d like to mention that although I felt it to be ir-relevant to the discussion, I did not delete it immediately and let others make up their own mind. In fact it still stays. Why I still say it is ir-relevant is because on this blog you’ll hardly find anything which has been taken straight from any other side and just pasted here. Please do not construe my deletion of a link as wasting your time. If you still think so, then I would not like to argue on that.
In addition, stop following the thump rule about Spamming. Show some sense and sensibility also some sensitivity.I am not even aware what a thump rule (or a thumb rule) regarding spamming is. But my intention is to welcome all those comments which have some kind of linkage with the post under which you are commenting. Now, you decide if I am discussing Kashmiri Pandits and how they have suffered – how does a diktat from a militant organisation to Kashmiri Muslims become relevant. At least I do not agree. And to top it all, when the contributor rather than contributing starts querying you – it feels as if I have got all the explanation to do for no fault of mine.
I have absolutely nothing against what Sharnarthi wanted us to discuss – may be some other time, some other post would have been appropriate. In fact I would still welcome him to contribute the way he likes. If he wants a new post – I would offer him the credit.
Are you trying to build a bridge or a brigade of ‘Yes ministers’? My honest attempt is to help the two communities understand each other even better without being abusive. As you rightly said if we all would agree with each other then there is nothing to discuss. I have put up this blog as I know we have lot to deliberate upon and then reach a consensus. I would like to reiterate not to take the deletion of link as a way to score a point.
The name of the topic itself is inappropriate and let me say ‘insensitive’. What are we supposed to discuss under it? Well the title may sound in-appropriate to you but not to me. I wrote this post as I felt Kashmiri Muslims need to acknowledge that Kashmiri Pandits form an important constituent (unlike Sharnarthi’s view that they have more right than anyone because centuries ago majority in Kashmir were Pandits) when it comes to deciding the future of the state. I still do not understand what was the problem in the title. Give me one concrete reason and I will change it to whatever you like.
I somehow cannot ignore this line of yours.
Now, you can continue to discuss about the ‘significance’ of Kashmiri Pandits akin to the significance of Street lamp in a Dark Alley. I hope you are not referring to the fact that without Kashmiri Pandits the valley is nothing but a “Dark Alley”. And if you have such notions I would like to debate that – as I often say but – some other day some other post.
Juz A Kashmiri
“I hope you are not referring to the fact that without Kashmiri Pandits the valley is nothing but a “Dark Alley”. And if you have such notions I would like to debate that – as I often say but – some other day some other post.”
You seen to be acknowledging my opinion by referring to it as a ‘fact’, so I would acknowledge that you are not into finer nuisances of writing.
Anyway, I was not trying to say that (although some other people might actually wanna take you up on take). I had a feeling that you would jump the Gun-take the Bait or just plainly nail the hammer with your head.
All I wanted to say is that, you could have used a better topic name.
You felt like …“Kashmiri Muslims need to acknowledge that Kashmiri Pandits form an important constituent (unlike Sharnarthi’s view that they have more right than anyone because centuries ago majority in Kashmir were Pandits) when it comes to deciding the future of the state.”
The fact that you have to acknowledge the obvious (That Kp are important constituent) and Sharnarthi has to revert to Ancient Times to prove has claim on Kashmir (and to prove the justice done to him) is purely Vulgar. This makes the topic purely absurd. It’s been named so casually that it seems like a Pamphlet telling a 20 year old person, Importance of Brushing Teeth, that too when he has already lost all his teeth due to slow decay. Not one teeth left so no chance of countering- you can protect the remaining. There is none left. Kps as an entity are out of your life. You say you learned I lot. Okay, if you really want to learn something. Here’s what you should do:- Ask your folks, parents, relatives about the Pandit teachers that they might have had. Ask them about their experience. If there is one field where Pandits gave truly something to Muslims, it was Education. But, apparently not enough people were truly educated.
I don’t understand this cult of pseudonyms. The strange badges that we like to carry, each person claming a badge-a unique identity proclaiming it as his voice (voice of distress, sanity, neutrality, sate of mind, ethnicity etc) .It’s almost like a war and soon we would run out of these Badges.
Look at the comments-we have Pawan, Anoop, Vinayak talking to whom… I don’t know! Where is your targeted audience, whom you wanted to address, the Kashmiri Muslims? Do they have a name? Where are your Nadeem, Knafi, Abdul Wani? None. That makes this process all the more meaningless. Your intentions might be pure but still all meaningless.
Some are pissed off, some want jihad, some are indifferent, some are very-very pissed off and so suicidal, some are still weighing their options-looking for better deal, some are insensitive, some are making money from the suffering, some are sitting comfortably at home and having spasms of guilt for not having done enough. All are living their life but some are planning to kill, some to die and be a ‘Martyr’ and some die anyway, the ones that you would call innocent The innocents whose lives were thrown in a turmoil. Here’s the point, Kps would always be counted among the innocent. So don’t blame us if some of us decide to take a higher moral ground. In addition, because nobody among your people spoke for us during that time, so we hold all of you guilty. Kp never understood why you wanted Azadi in the First Place? We still don’t understand, what came over you people. We don’t trust you people because we don’t know when the ‘Zikhir’ would return (that is, if it has gone in the first place).
“you decide if I am discussing Kashmiri Pandits and how they have suffered – how does a diktat from a militant organization to Kashmiri Muslims become relevant. At least I do not agree. And to top it all, when the contributor rather than contributing starts querying you – it feels as if I have got all the explanation to do for no fault of mine.”
Off course, it’s all related. The fact that you acknowledge that nobody spoke out against atrocities on Pandits and the fact that Sharnarthi claims that nobody speaks out against such Fatwas. Also the fact that Caashurr said …“First of all, do you think i could have said a word about that _tchooorrr_.. Dont you think i would have found myself in the pool of blood. Somebody did write that a burqa clad woman was killed in cold blood and labelled mukhbir. I wud have really hated to be labelled mukhbir.”
The fact that your society is under the Shadow of Gun( that your people took up for causes that Kps don’t understand) is never going to allow you speak freely( the fact that most KM use strange names here. Instead of being individuals they want to represent a lot more unknown similar minded people. It’s almost like you can’t even trust your own people, maybe being labeled Pro-India for your views worries you. I would like your views about this issue) and claim innocence …as you say for “no fault of mine”. Of course, the fault is yours (the fact that you like to use ‘we’ in some of your post to mean similar minded Kashmiri Muslims goes against you here, you have to share blame for all of them. You are their voice here, as they are all here in absentia and under pseudonyms. You have to clear the doubts because not a lot of other people would do that. Brother, you started this ‘I’ ‘We’ problem so you have to deal with it) because you did not fight for the voice of reason, for the innocents and for yourself. You let the events unfold and watched in mute silence hoping for the best. How can you have a dialogue if you don’t answer the dirty questions? Doing an ON-OFF on topics won’t do? Instead of suppressing the ill-feelings, why not bring out the dirt? I won’t ask you about your views on Tahreek.)
That would probably turn off a lot of the people from this blog. And that would be the end of the discussion. Same would happen if you ask me that question ( By now, I think you have an idea what I think of it)
So, instead I would ask you.
What’s the worse/best question that you can ask a Kp? Let a KP give his point of view.
Then let a Kp put a question to you.
(P.S : Forgive me if there are any spelling or grammatical mistakes in this piece, I am really sleepy right now. Still the message is loud and clear( harsh is you like) hope you got it)
Vinayak,
I fail to understand one simple thing – why is it that you have to find faults in every post or comment of mine. Is it just that you want to simply criticise – reason or no reason – you never bother? If you think that I have to always indulge in appeasement of Pandits and mindless criticism of Kashmiris then I am sorry you are on an absolutely wrong track. I criticise those whose actions were/are inhuman and I put my point of view across. Let you disagree.
The choice of topic – You seem to have a huge problem (God knows why) with the title. It sounds really unreal that of all the things you want to concentrate your energies on the title and not the contents. I will call it a strange fixation. As Shakespeare once said “What is there in a name?”, And Mr. Vinayak you seem to have forgotten the ubiquitious quote that rose would still smell sweet even if called by any other name.
Then you have another problem as to where is the targeted audience. Do I need a sermon what my targeted audience should be. Thanks but no thanks. I know what I am doing and I know why I am doing that. And I also know what to publish here and what not. All I am interested in doing is trying to be different than what most of us are – full of hatred for each other. You are doing your level best to provoke me into some kind of a mud-slinging but sorry you are simply not good (or bad) enough.
Then you have a problem with what I think Kashmiri Muslims have to acknowledge. In your opinion it is “vulgar to acknowledge the obvious”… Sorry terrible choice of words. I will like to reason it here – When by your own accounts and of other Pandit organizations’ statistics there are none but a handful of Pandits remaining in Kashmir, how do you think the significance is “obvious” and need not be stated. All this when Pandits speak about the danger to their culture and heritage which may completely vanish with successive generations. No its not me saying all this “…a uniquely rich culture that is in great danger of extinction” an excerpt from http://www.koausa.org (“Original inhabitants of Kashmir” is the tagline, I wonder what this word Original means)
You seem to have no regard for the innocents who get killed in this strife – your choice of words “some die anyway” is really gross And this is the most dangerous dimension of your thoughts. You do not seem to have any feeling for an innocent human being who falls prey to either the security personnel or for whom the bullet is fired from a militant’s gun. It is a shame.
You don’t trust us I know, and some of you may never trust us… Your choice… for it doesn’t make an iota of difference to me. I feel for innocents getting killed and any amount of hatred spewed on me is not going to change my principles. Better luck next time.
I would like to quote your lines
“It’s almost like you can’t even trust your own people, maybe being labeled Pro-India for your views worries you.”
Branded as Pro-India… You got to be kidding mate, And I am sure you never meant it .. Just said it. Or else I would call it “height of optimism”.
What we fought for and what we’re fighting for is nothing but to let us live honorably. And that is not such a bad thing to ask for. If some people managed to corrupt this movement they deserve to get the punishment they merit. Mind you there is no “I” or “We” problem, its all in your mind.
Now let me come to the last point, you want a question answer session, I am game for it. Watch out for my new post where I will take the questions from Kashmiri Pandits. Please be rational then and don’t ask questions like the kind Sharnarthi is asking “Tell me one Pandit who killed a Kashmiri Muslim”.
Oh ya.. you have one more issue with the names (or the badges people are wearming) under which people post their comments. Again a strange fixation with names without understanding the ground reality. When you are living under the shadow of two guns and yet like to comment on the conditions invariably you end up antagonizing atleast one of the two. Would you dare sticking your neck in such a scenario. Ahaannn, I know you won’t.. just one was enough for you.
My views on Tahreek will soon be published on this blog. So please be a little patient.
Juz A Kashmiri
kashmiris-the-way-ahead
now that’s a nice name.
“Ahaannn, I know you won’t.. just one was enough for you.”
That’s definitely a nice way to go.
The point that has been eluding you and that I have been trying to make is: The Unknown hand, people not from my community, held The Gun facing the Pandits. You say you face two guns; well one of them is in the hand of your own people. People against whom you can’t speak. People with whom you can’t disagree because they have the gun and are your own people.
Your use of Shakespearean quotes is most apt. The way your Tahreek shaped, is it self nothing less than a Shakespearean Tragedy. Let me explain before you label it out of context.
Shakespearean Tragedy “exemplifies the sense that human beings are inevitably doomed through their own failures or errors, or even the ironic action of their virtues, or through the nature of fate, destiny, or the human condition to suffer, fail, and die….”
“What we fought for and what we’re fighting for is nothing but to let us live honorably.”
And for this ‘honorable’ life you killed and got killed. Oh the tragedy!
“You don’t trust us I know, and some of you may never trust us… Your choice… for it doesn’t make an iota of difference to me.”
Notice the play of ‘…I know’ ‘…trust us’ ‘…difference to me’
Why isn’t it ‘…WE KNOW’, ‘…TRUST US’ and ‘…DIFFERENCE TO US’.
You keep shifting from I to We and then back from We to I. In between your message is lost. What kind of duality is this?
Your reply: There is none.
Maybe not in your mind but it does reflect in your post.
“You seem to have no regard for the innocents…”
I try to keep emotions aside when I write( the same way as you try to use(unsuccessfully) ‘I- we’ to put your personal feelings aside). If I were to keep mixing emotions, the stuff you write would stop making sense to me.The fact that innocent must not die does not mean that they do not die. They do die and regretting over it does no good to the dead. Instead, we can focus on the reason why they died and remove the reason. The fact that
death of innocent is unfortunate should be obvious to anyone taking part in this discussion. And the obvious need not be stated every time.
“I wonder what this word Original means”
Again obvious, Kps were in Kashmir long before the dawn of Islam in Kashmir. That’s what the tag line is screaming. You wanted the answer, you have it now.
Vinayak,
Sorry to say that Kashmiris-the-way-ahead is the post slug (and it was there from day 1) and not the title of the post, so please dont be thrilled un-necessarily.
Now as I write this, I will try to remove your one more ‘needless’ confusion of I and we. Let me stick to I as much as possible. You’ll still find ways to question me un-necesarily as that is your forte. So please continue.
I had the courage to stay in the valley even in the face of both the guns.. and what you did is not required to be mentioned. You think I cannot speak against atrocities, again you are kidding yourself. I do criticise what I feel is wrong and no need to tutor me for that. It is very difficult to teach anyone what honorable means – Even if Kashmiris are being killed everyday we have not lost our honour; We are at no-ones mercy.
I was forced to write that you do not trust us. This was just my response to your lines We don’t trust you people because (notice the use of word “We” by you) …., Given a choice I do not want to doubt anyone but if he chooses to doubt me, I am not looking forward to change his thinking as he is capable enough to decide on his own.
And what is this I and We debate, anyways I will try to end that debate now by saying I represent voice of Kashmiri Muslims who think like me and so let me make use of whatever I feel is right. You know by now your comments are more aimed at creating a sensation and not to carry the dialog forward.
You mentioned about keeping emotions aside, I am sorry but I do not agree with your view point.
Original – ya that same ol’ story – but I won’t be provoked for I do not want to get into a discussion which our good ol’ friend Sharnarthi so dearly wanted.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Bloggers,
It was nice to go through this blog and read all the posts , though it did take quite some time ,but honestly it was interesting and at the same time I was feeling happy also.As per my knowledge Kashmiris do not have a culture of debate (in all the communities) and with the help of media we are now growing into a community which is ready to accept an opinion different from his own.We may be having differences on issues and trust me if we just try to live with that ,the grudge list will never end from either side.
I appreciate JAK for the concern he has for humanity on whole irrespective of the faith they follow. I think it’s time to increase the contact with each other and try to forget what we have gone through.Forums like these will help us to understand each other and work on a something positive.
May be a time will come again when we will face each other as neighbours again.
Thanks Basharat,
Your appreciation of my efforts is really welcome. Please take time to visit my other posts as well.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
When we say that the community is on verge of extinction , the view is that the culturally we may become extinct out of Kashmir. And if there is anyone we can blame ,it is the majority of the people in Kashmir who or directly or indirectly , overtly or covertly responsible.
Secondly ,when we say that the original inhabitants of Kashmir, it means that we are like what we were. We resisted forced conversion. We grew up from the 11 families who survived Sikandar Bhtshikhan and likes.
JAK, the gap presently is HUGE , we as victimes can not forget that , while a opressor may at some stage still have the will to compromise.
This is a human tendency and we are living upto it.
JAK , again it is not Vinayak is talking about the individuals. Kindly understand that the debate is keeping in view the larger population of Kashmir and it is quite natural for Vinayak to term we and us and you . I am sure if you would have been in our shoes ,you would have written no better.
Dear Pawan/ Vinayak,
It is nice to see people debating over the common ‘issue of Kashmir’. But it does not make sense that ‘KPs are original Kashmiris’…. just tell me if we or our ancestors changed our beliefs from multiple god belief (Hinduism) to single god belief (Islam), how does it change our ‘permanent residence tag’.
Religion is a matter of personal conviction afterall. In fact, as a muslim I am very proud of my grand grand parents who had accepted Islam.
If foreign muslims rulers invaded Kashmir, so did rulers like Vikramadatiya and some others. Just try to learn the global & Indian social & political scenario of those periods and then come up with a comparison.
When the whole world has become a global village, you are tossing up some stupid theory to stake claim for Kashmir. Instead, we can discuss according to the true intentions shown by the JAZ.
“I had the courage to stay in the valley even in the face of both the guns.. and what you did is not required to be mentioned. You think I cannot speak against atrocities, again you are kidding yourself. I do criticise what I feel is wrong and no need to tutor me for that. It is very difficult to teach anyone what honorable means – Even if Kashmiris are being killed everyday we have not lost our honour; We are at no-ones mercy.”
ya that same ol’ story – but I won’t be provoked for I do not want to get into a discussion which our good ol’ friend ‘You’ so dearly want(and claim to not want).
You keep saying that you don’t want discussion on these on these lines. You keep saying you don’t want to be provoked but you do get provoked and come up with ____ (edited out) like this.
At least, I don’t profess to be a saint and then happily go on spewing hate. I am not sly; I say what I have to say.
You accuse me of sensationalism. So I take my leave before you accuse me of Hijacking the topic (oops!! a bad word to use).
Nice slug. Now you can keep slug it out with like-minded people and feel good.
(Had to respond to this one)
@Jk_pul
Of course religion is a matter of personal conviction. But, history my dear friend should not a matter of personal conviction. But, people often make it a matter of personal choice. ( Read my post on the subject)
The fact that you are proud of your ancestors for conversion to Islam does not mean conversion by force did not happen. Or that Kps have a long history of migration out of Kashmir thanks to some tyrants. These tyrants happened to be Muslim is a fact just as the fact that the present migration started thanks to slogans like “Ya Ralev, Ya Chaliv, Ya Galiv”. So, if we choose to see our present condition as a cause of Tyrant Islamic designs, you can’t blame us. If we choose to cling to our Hindu Identity to lay claim to Hindu Kashmir is not surprising. During previous migrations we did not have a Hindu India to bank upon and you have Muslim Pakistan to bank upon. This makes things different this time. Things were nice for Kps in Kashmir does not mean Pandits did not have a hard time under some Tyrant Islamic rulers.Remember Budshah was the son of a tyrant, a tyrant whose dirty work was carried out by an over zealous new convert to Islam, his minister Suha Bhatt . We choose to remember either the father, the son or the minister. Why not remember all of them and be able to form a better opinion?
JK_Pul,
There is a thin distance between the cup & the lips. Did I at any time say that the most of muslims are not the original inhabitants ?
Here a part of original inhabitants have been forced out of Kashmir , so that part is reclaimimg their right to Kashmir. And even if we are in minorty ,nobody can deny us that right.
As for the muslims in Kashmir, i do not think that all are the original inhabitants of Kashmir. Few did come from other parts of Asia . I do not want them out of that place , but the wish of the originals have to be respected.
I like your statemnt that the world has become a global village . But this is an idea which is related to discussions only. If the same would have been acceted by Kashmiris , they wouldnt have rebelled against India, killed the hindus , destroyed the temples .All in the name of a particular “talibanised ideology”.
You have a right to disagree with me, but calling my thoughts as “stupid” is arrogance. Leave it where it belongs. You would only be exposing yourself to flimsy reasons and I am in no mood for an argument.
As for you being proud of your grand parents and for accepting Islam, I congratulate you for that. But I am sure you would have been proud as well like us for resisting the forced conversion despite the odds.
I for one is nobody to remove your “permanent resisdence status” , and I have never demanded it as well. The problem is the way you think, I wrote that in context of Kashmiri Pandits and I am unable to understand why does this demand for our right cause an insecurity to you.
You are a part of Indian Kashmir and would remain so your life time. It does not matter if you belong to a different faith. And so do we want a part of Kashmir where we can practise our faith which your grand parents once followed.Maybe your elders would feel nostalgic sometimes.
Dear Vinayak,
First of all you don’t need to mention words like “had to respond..” You are free to respond in the manner you like whether or not the manner is ideal. Unfortunately, sometimes some of us like JK_PUL and yourself and others like to harp on the past while I’d rather have this discussion on other post. But since this blog is an open forum I do not want to stop anyone from posting their view point.
I just wanted to make a quick comment here… Quoting your lines “During previous migrations we did not have a Hindu India to bank upon and you have Muslim Pakistan to bank upon. This makes things different this time.” If I know a little bit of history and can make out what you are referring to – then the migration you are talking about happened many centuries ago – in fact in and around 1300 and I do not think there was any nation like “Muslim Pakistan” or even “Pakistan” for that matter.
A little bit of history reading may be of some help.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan and Vinayak,
First point: Apologies for using the word ‘ stupid’!
The way you had mentioned ‘KP as original Kashmiris’, it reflected that most KMs are outsiders. Atleast it is clear that except few people, most of inhabitants of Kashmir are ‘real Kashmiris’. But do you know how many Indian hindus & muslims have left their home and settled in other countries. Isn’t it a natural phenomenon? I agree with you that most of the rulers have exploited their nations including those who ruled Kashmir ….tell me one nation where unjust and tyrant kings have not ruled. Just go through history of india, you will find many such examples. Agreed that Muslim rulers came to sub-continent but what was the situation before even when majorit people practised Budhism or Hinduism! Do you blame Hnduism for their misdeeds?
One friend has mentioned about Sikhander… Sikhander or Alexnader was not a Muslim. Chengez Khan or Halaghu Khan were not Muslims..! I am not justifying the misdeeds of those rulers whether they were Hindus or Muslims or else but I want to say that we have to live in present and work for future. I am firm believer that ‘if there was compulsion…it was unislamic’,; I condemn that. However if people accepted islam for its teachings; you must respect that. If people have already lived with that belief for 1000 yrs now, will this ‘forced conversion theory’ help us build up trust with each other. I invite you to read the Koran rather than raising mud on Muslims…. you will find the real answer for your queries.
I will definitely oppose any forced conversion, but I never seen any non-muslim being forced to convert. People convert to islam even today even though there is so much of propaganda being done against Islam.
Coming to the actual point. There is no doubt that KPs were harrassed and embarrased during 1989/90, but wasn’t it an outcome of politcal problems in Kashmir. Political instability of Kashmir lead to the present situation.
Dear Everyone,
Some people have a habit of creating a nuisance out of absolutely nothing and then say they will have none of the non-sense which they are so wonderful at coming up with. A case-in-point here are the posts by one gentleman, in one of his posts he accepted the fact that he has no regard for innocent lives being lost and then in the very next comment with a beautiful twist-of-words tried to sound realistic and much more humane than anyone this world has seen.
A cursory glance through his comments will easily reveal who is provoking whom and harping on issues like I and We… Title of Post.. and in between a generous dose of inconsistencies.
I do not like to foist my opinions and all I would like to say is that please read every post / comment by me and whosoever with an open mind and not jump to hurried conclusions. That will leave us harried which we do not want.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan & Vinayak,
One important point: Most KPs quote that KMs raised abusive slogans during the rising 1990. Well, I agree with that.
But quite commonly, KPs blame that KMs used the slogan ‘ yehan kiya chalega , nizamme mustafa’…. ( We want Mohammed’s Rule here)… I believe that Nizame Musatafa is something that all humans crave for. Just learn first, what is ‘ Nizame Mustafa’. But unfortunately this slogan was just used to spread terror, hatred, harrasment. I wish Muslims were able to establish Nizamme Mustafa…you will love to live along with muslims then and no non-muslim would be unsafe.
@JAK
“During previous migrations we did not have a Hindu India to bank upon and you have Muslim Pakistan to bank upon. This makes things different this time.”
This is really bothersome.
What it was supposed to mean is:
We have a Hindu India to back us and you have a Muslim Pakistan backing you up.
This wasn’t the case before, as you said because (no Muslim Pakistan or for that matter India existed in real sense)
Movement of Pandits out of Kashmir would not have mattered to anyone in those days. This time a lot of other issues are involved, infact two relatively new born Nations are involved. Nations whose existence is at stake here.
You could have at least realized all this by yourself. Anyway thanks for pointing it out.
But, isn’t it really different thing this time. Seriously think about it.
“A little bit of history reading may be of some help.”
I would leave that comment aside. Also, I leave aside your one complete comment about me.
@Jk_pul
It’s true that Nizamme Mustafa maybe a wonderful thing. We may not realize it. A Hindu can say the same about ‘Ram Rajya’. He might say that you do not realize what a wonderful thing it is. They talk about ideal world, the Utopia. This logic might work fine in ideal word that they want to create but we certainly don’t like in an ideal word.
@JAK
“I had the courage to stay in the valley even in the face of both the guns.. and what you did is not required to be mentioned. You think I cannot speak against atrocities, again you are kidding yourself. I do criticise what I feel is wrong and no need to tutor me for that. It is very difficult to teach anyone what honorable means – Even if Kashmiris are being killed everyday we have not lost our honour; We are at no-ones mercy.”
Wasn’t Prophet Mohammed forced to move out of Mecca. What’s Hijra all about? Isn’t it about Migration? Didn’t his own people ‘Quraysh’ force him to move out? Was moving out a dishonorable thing to do?
No, ofcourse not.
Didn’t he not return?
If your house is on fire the most sensible thing to do is to move out of it. Try to control the fire from a safer distance. If you can’t control it and if it burns down; try to rebuild it. For that you have to try to stay alive
Where’s the dishonor in that? Where’s the dishonor in choosing life?
You say that you stayed put. That’s the tragedy. Where could you have gone? We could go to the plains of India but you had nowhere to go. That’s the tragedy that the innocent Kashmiri Muslim lived through and is living through.
Mr Vinayak
It is nice to see you again, but please refrain from commenting on one’s religion with half-baked knowledge of yours. And the kind of comparison you are trying to make is really something which has potential to create un-necessary heartburn here. So my humble request not to draw such inferences in the future.
I did not like almost similar comparison made by President of Pakistan Parvez Musharraf soon after 9/11 to justify letting American forces attack Afghanistan from inside his country. I may mention that in no way am I condoning what had happened in US on that fateful Tuesday morning. It was perhaps one of the most inhuman attacks on innocent civilians after Nagasaki and Hiroshima tragedies.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
Sorry…was away for few days and thus could not write back.
I asked a question which you have continued to dodge. I asked “Why were Kashmiri Pandits killed?” and your answer is:
“Now coming back to your question “Why were Pandits killed?”. I am sorry to say but we all have expressed regret at that and feel very bad about it.”
You seem to be smart enough to understand simple English. Then why don’t you understand the question? Did I ask you to express regrets and feel very bad about it (the killings of Kashmiri Pandits)? I am asking “Why were Kashmiri Pandits killed?”
Now you might say that it is not relevant to the discussion. But it IS. It is very relevant because in order to see the issues from all perspectives, one has to understand the causes of the issues. One has to treat the disease and not the symptom. Do you think Kashmiri Pandits will decide to come back to the valley just because Kashmiri Muslims expressed regrets? Today they express regrets but when the time comes they will not stop from killing Kashmiri Pandits again. 1989-90 was not the first time Kashmiri Pandits were targeted and hounded out of their homes. This one is the 7th mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits. Each time, Kashmiri Pandits were killed and eeach time they came back. But this time, Kashmiri Pandits will go back only at their own terms and timing. And only after treating the disease and not just the symptom.
So once again, to understand the right perspective and issue at hand, one has to answer the question “Why were Kashmiri Pandits killed?” I know you know the answer but you don’t seem to have the COURAGE to accept the fact.
If you cannot or don’t have the gumption to face the truth, then you should stop this facade’ and instead focus on some other charade.
And please stop promoting and selling the “Nizam-e-Mustafa” concept to Kashmiri Pandits. They very well know what it means. They have faced it first-hand and have suffered miserably. They know better.
Take care
Sharnarthi
What did I say that should offend anyone’s religion?
Perhaps you would look here and tell me if I offended anyone in doing this.
Or you can take a look here and tell me if I am offending anyone. Or was he offending anyone through his writings and his descriptions of ego, self and renewal for Muslim civilization. Didn’t he have to face the music from religious fanatics for that? Incidentally, he was a kashmiri too and had _____________(edited).I am working on a post on my experience of discovering Allama Iqbal. Am I offending anyone?
I am no scholar of Islam but I can tell you that my knowledge of Islam is certainly more than that of the people who carried out the 9/11 attack or forced Pandits out of Kashmir.
And yes, Musharraf is an idiot, just like any other dictator. At least on that we can agree …hopefully.
Mr. Sharnarthi,
Thanks for the lesson in English. This blog is not meant to defend those who killed innocent Kashmiris. Hope you get the point once and for all and desist from asking questions for which none here has an answer.
The choice of coming back indeed lies with Pandits and I agree with your viewpoint. Hopefully, you will bring a new argument to the fore now since you have been disarmed of your barbs.
Please continue what you like to do best. For your kind information we are not salesmen here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Hello Everyone
Sometimes I wonder what could be the fall-out of allowing too many comments against one post, and I guess I am realizing it now.
Many of us seem to be writing with reference to previous two or three comments while overlooking that how the issue was presented in the original post. Let us take the example of one gentleman who repeatedly asks me “Why were Pandits killed”. If in my post I had tried to defend killers of innocent civilians then probably such a question would have made sense. But when I am myself condemning the actions, I fail to understand the logic behind repeating the query. I hope the person goes back and reads my post from start to end.
Some of us harp on the thing that Kashmir is a Muslim-majority one while some would like to go back by a few centuries to justify who has more rights to decide on the future. I fail to understand the logic behind both such views. The essence of my post was to make KMs realize that Pandits are an important constituent when it comes to deciding the fate of Kashmir and at the same time help KPs in understanding the reality that not all Kashmiris want them to be inconvenienced in any manner. Then why is it so that repeated attempts are being made to convince me that what happened with KPs was inhuman and tragic when my post clearly highlights that.
Hopefully next time some one puts another comment, he realizes that comment must essentially be about what is mentioned in the post and not the preceding comment by some one else.
Juz A Kashmiri
Mr. Vinayak,
As promised your post has been put up after cleaning the html code and putting up links for convenience. One word has been deleted from your post because it seemed highly inappropriate that we are constantly referring to origins of Kashmiri Muslims as Hindu ancestral.
Request you all to stay clear of things which have no meaning. Or if someone can tell me what difference it makes to the discussion whether our ancestors were Hindu or Muslim. Kashmiris are suffering and their past is not helping to save them. Hope you understand.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
First, please do not tell me that no one here on this blog knows the answer to the question that I have been posing to you. You obviously for the reasons best known to you alone are avoiding to answer because you don’t have the courage to face the truth. I will tell you why Kashmiri Pandits were killed. They were killed because they were Hindus and were an obstacle in the path of establishing Nizam-e-Mustafa in the Kashmir. Now that you have the answer that you too knew but did not want to say, let us move on.
OK. On your request, I have re-read your original post. And this is what you say:
“We all know that most of the Kashmiri Pandits (either by coercion or by force or whatever you may like to call that) lost their homes and left for some of the most un-welcome places at the start of the militancy (or tehreek – you may use any word).”
Do you think, Kashmiri Pandits lost only homes or did they lose their fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers as well?
You also say that local muslims were confused about the reasons of Kashmiri Pandits’ mass exodus. Are you serious about that? Do you sincerely think that they did not know that Kashmiri Pandits left because they had to save their lives from terrorists? Please do not tell me what you have read. Please tell me what you think.
Also, how do you define those who engaged into blatant killings of Kashmiri Pandits? Militants or Terrorists? For now, I am going to keep the religion out of this discussion. So how do you define Bitta Karate? A militant or a terrorist or a political activist?
Finally, let us hear from you what you propose the solutions for reconciliation between the two communities are? Please do not tell me that you are too small or not knowledgeable enough to propose solutions. You can surely propose solutions based on your knowledge and experience. Let us hear it from you. So far, you have not added any value to the discussion other than reacting negatively to Pawan’s, Vinayak’s and my posts. So let us hear it from you. If you are not going to discuss, then I fail to understand the reason for even starting this post/thread. Please enlighten.
Sharnarthi.
JK_PUL,
When I am talking about Sikandar Bhutshikhan , it is not Alexander . Sikandar Bhutshikhan was a different king who killed millions of Kashmiri Pandits.
Secondly i appreciate your statement which asked me “But do you know how many Indian hindus & muslims have left their home and settled in other countries. Isn’t it a natural phenomenon?”
Now if you let me ask my question , i would wish to know why Kashmiris wanted to resist other people of India to settle down in Kashmir . Is it not against the natural phenomenon.
When we live in a secular country , we can not afford to go according to one particular belief. Whether it is Nizam E-Mustafa or Ram Rajya or Church.
Trust me ,even if we have Nizam E Mustafa , you would see more killings . Qadians being killed and Shia and Sunni with different beliefs.
Modern world and Democracy dont work like that.
Do you remember those slogans “Azaadi Ka Matlab Kya ? La Illa Illa La ” . What does this staement signify ? Or do you agree with statement of Syed Ali Sha Geelani where he said Islam & secularism have nothing in common.
And if you talk about real Nizam E Mustafa & Sharia, then dear friend you would not be praying like how it is done in “Makhdoom Sahib ” , and you know the history of what was done to “Chraar E Shareef” by Akbar Bhai .
But Alas , you dont even remember Akbar Bhais misdeed of Burning Chraar E Shareef and causing disrespect to Nund Ryosh.
You see here is the problem. You decided to edit out the part that mentioned Iqbal’s ethnic origin, even though I did not approach his work from the point of view of a zealot.
You are very selective at approaching facts. I was not stressing the reason for which his ancestors might have decided to convert. His ancestors were Pandits is a fact but what is really contested, is the way his ancestors converted. I didn’t want to go into that. Like I said in an earlier post, why can’t we reconcile with our past, with the fact that his ancestors were Pandit whereas he himself died a great Islamic Poet. Being selective in choosing history causes problems.
Vinayak,
There is always a way to put things… As you can read in your above post you have again spoken about the ancestors but in a much more respectful manner. Earlier, when you had mentioned it I found it quite distasteful.
By the way why are we stuck up with ancestral tales. I thought we are trying to raise above these petty issues.
Juz A Kashmiri
Is 800 years of a particular history of some relevance ? I thought it was .
Pawan,
It indeed is… and it has to be. But for constructive purposes rather than harping on what we were 7 centuries ago, I think it will be better to understand how we are now.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
Again the problem is that the majority in Kashmir still does not realise what mistakes they committed.
And even educated one making fancy stories about our exodus.
Do we still expect to trust.
Check this story by an educted person of Kashmir belonging to majority community here
Comment was held back by Akismet by WordPress as it was identified as spam, and I have just de-spammed it.
Dear Pawan,
If a TV journalist of the best English news channel in India constitutes majority according to you, I am sorry to say you need to correct your opinions. It’s not necessary we all agree with what he says. Whether or not you trust us is entirely your choice, I only say what I feel.
I read that piece by the gentleman and the only word that I can come up with is “insensitive”. I wonder how this was published.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK ,
i wrote that he belonged to a majority community.
Anyway , i appreciate your statement of calling this journalist as insensitive and wondering how this article was published.
Let better sense prevail
JAK,
Any particular reason why you have ignored my post. Is it because you don’t have the stomach or integrity to accept the hard facts?
Edited Out for use of abusive languageAs I had said in my earlier posts, this is some kind of game for you where you want to engage Kashmiri Pandits into conversations but don’t want to LISTEN. You cannot succeed if you have closed your ears. It is not going to be “My Way or Highway”.
Pawan, Vinayak,
Please leave JAK alone. He is getting unnecessary attention. I have a feeling that he is one of those who crave for attention. He is a coward who does not have the stomach to accept the fact and stand up against the Terrorists. So let him enjoy the company of his own solitude. That is what he deserves.
Sharnarthi.
Mr. Sharnarthi,
It seems you feel every time you post a comment you are too eager for our reply. Yes, we are not important – then why this clamour. One doesn’t need to be on the blog to reply to your post the moment you want. For that matter, the blogs that I post on I am yet to see them reply. I do not pass judgements on their personality like you are so keen to do.
You talk about being communal. Now may I ask you what makes you think you have to take cudgels on behalf of the whole community of yours. And your use of abusive language simply does nothing to dispel the notion how you think about Kashmiri Muslims. Your life, your choice – no need to change that.
What do mean by listening – getting provoked (Like you get) by some comment which I am not supposed to like.
Now let me come to your comments. Those who engage in killing innocents call them by any name militants, terrorists or whatever they are to me the most inhuman people. Now whether he is a person with a Muslim identity or fighting in the name of security, he deserves the worst kind of punishment.
I find one thing really strange in your comment. At times you are at your most unkind behaviour and then you are asking how we can re-concile our differences. Isn’t that a paradox? Can you please tell us whether you still want to live in the past or you are willing to treat Kashmiri Muslims as those who have been wronged in the manner I say Pandits suffered.
You are asking for solutions – My dear friend whatever you and I propose is not going to make a difference till there is hatred. Leave that hatred and you won’t need any because the problem itself won’t be there. I am amazed that you think I am reacting negatively to posts. Shall I quote the instances wherein you have resorted to using language which cannot be called “gentlemanly”… I just hope my English is not bad enough.
If you feel this is a game being played, I’d say OK… It’s your call.
I love my solitude and I love my motherland. Please try to be a little rational or shall i say less ir-rational. You are not harming me but you are not doing yourself any favour either.
Juz A Kashmiri
Friends,
Its really sad that despite every attempt to respond to everyone’s comments so positively some of the contributor(s) are gradually getting a little restless and resorting to abusive language.
I feel we are here to share our feelings and not pass judgements on persons or any community. Those who like to disagree please let us know.
Juz A Kashmiri
Mr Pawan,
Killing of an innocent person, whether Qadiani or a Muslim or a Pandit, is in-human. So it doesn’t matter whether the nation is based on religious doctrine or follows secular traditions.
But if you feel that innocents would be killed if such a doctrine is put in place, I would say it wont be because of Shariah being implemented or Ram-Rajya being established. It would because an evil mind wants to continue coming up with designs to harm innocents.
Hope that answers a part of your query.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
As I said and I will repeat, you don’t have the stomach and integrity to accept the hard facts.
Here is a link (I am sure you will delete this as well)
that tells you what Sallahudin thinks about the return of Kashmiri Pandits to their homeland.
Now I dare you and Kashmir’s local Muslims (who in your opinion were confused back in 1989-90-91) to stand up against Sallahudin and tell him that he is wrong. Would you? Let us see how courageous you are…I am hoping that the confused lot is not confused anymore and can make better judgments.
And please don’t tell me what gentlemanly means. I have seen enough of gentlemanly behavior from those who killed Kashmiri Pandits and forced them to leave their homeland. The day, those terrorists and those who supported them, behave gentlemanly, you will see me reciprocate the same.
Sharnarthi.
Mr. Pawan,
Thanks for giving me something to feel happy about. Happy that one in the crowd of so many has not questioned my thoughts and feelings.
Juz A Kashmiri
Mr. Sharnarthi,
Whether you believe it or not I knew this news is surely going to be a hot-topic here. I read about it in today’s Greater Kashmir and I do not need to say I was disappointed.
The day Kashmiri Pandits will speak against the atrocities on Kashmiris (not Pandits only but Muslims too) you will see a sea-change.
Sorry to prove you wrong once again – Your link stays.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
Isn’t that something?
Muslims first kill Kashmiri Pandits and then expect the same Kashmiri Pandits to be the first one to change the behavior before they themselves change their behavior!!!
That tells me a lot about you. And please do not tell me that the terrorists who killed Kashmiri Pandits were not Muslims. Please don’t even try to insult us anymore.
Thanks
Sharnarthi.
Mr. Sharnarthi,
I am not asking anyone to do anything. It is my conviction and my principles which tell me innocent Pandtis (and Muslims too) fell prey to bullets from either side.
If you do not want to acknowledge its your choice.
No lessons needed to say who is insulting whom.
Juz A Kashmiri
Didn’t you advocate the following?
“The day Kashmiri Pandits will speak against the atrocities on Kashmiris (not Pandits only but Muslims too) you will see a sea-change.”
And then you the gall to say that you did not ask anyone to do anything. How can you lie with a straight face? The sheer idea of yours that the victim (Kashmiri Pandits) will have to change their tone against the perpetrators is appalling and sick at best.
And you still haven’t shown the courage to stand up against Sallahuddin and folks like him….
The day you and Kashmiri Muslims stand up against these terrorists, no one will have to die. It is all within your control. Choice is yours.
Sharnarthi.
Sharnarthi,
Thanks for pointing it out because one who can read properly would have understood I have not asked anyone to do that – All I have said the day it will happen you will see a sea-change… Oh I should have made it simpler in the first place itself.
Sorry next time surely I will keep it in mind.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
Playing with words does not cut it. Even the idea of yours that Kashmiri Pandits have to change their tone is pathetic at best.
As I have said, all you can do is to be sarcastic. You don’t have the courage to stand up for what is RIGHT and stand up against terrorists. I dare you to stand up against them and make few of these sarcastic remarks against them.
The fact remains that the day you and Kashmiri Muslims stand up against these terrorists, no one will have to die. It is all within your control. If Kashmiri Muslims think that they can have the cake and eat it too, then they are grossly mistaken. One cannot be unpatriotic and at the same time not expect the law of the land to take its course.
Choice is always yours.
Sharnarthi.
Mr. Sharnarthi,
I will stick to my words – whether or not it cuts anything. I haven’t asked anyone to do anything.
You will do me a favour by pointing out a single comment where all I have done is indulge in sarcasm of Pandits. And if I set out with that motive and scan your comments and then mine, I can clearly show how incessant and useless criticism of Kashmiris by you hasn’t provoked a single misdemeanor from me. Try harder mate.
You are saying Kashmiris have to stand up against terrorism I thought we are doing that for the last two decades now – against both kinds of terrorism. But yes being miles away from India, you may not know the complete situation.
And mind you after two decades of atrocities, we do not expect anything from the “land”.
Choice is always an indiviudal’s
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK ,
I have a piece of advise for you. here you are a blogger and you have written an intresting page. You should have left it at that and allowed the others to discuss. You have expressed your view and you should have left it at that.
Having said that , i too believe that it is probably expecting too much from Pandits at this moment to issue a ststement for the rights of Muslims. Pandits have been made homeless by the majority .
Thankfully we were not hostages and preferred to live in exile. You may expect this statement from Pandits who still live in Kashmir as they have something to safeguard for.
Rest of us are not suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
Being honest, i believe that not even once has a seizable group in Kashmir spoken against those militants who are responsible for the plight of Kashmiri Pandits.You may have your individual view but that does not count. We are talking about majority and those who run the show.
As for me , i believe the only option left for Secular & Peace loving Kashmiris is a union territory of Panun Kashmir. And people like you may opt to be a part of it. It may be free from all those gun weilding, ISI follwers.
JAK, I just want an honest answer from you for my own information . How many do you think are there in Kashmir, who think like you do. People like you are a welcome”change” , but how many of “you” exist ?
Stay like what you are, I dont think we need to alienate one like”you”
Sharnarthi : WOuld you kindly send me a mail so that I can chat with you .
Pawan Durani
Thanks Pawan
For your friendly advice. I wish everyone starts thinking like you that after posting my piece here I do not want to answer every comment that contributors write.
Having said that read what one of your dearest friends (to be) comes up with
Any particular reason why you have ignored my post. Is it because you don’t have the stomach or integrity to accept the hard facts?
Abuses deleted
Now you are talking about Panun Kashmir and “offering us” to live there… Isn’t that so kind of you. I am amazed you can come up with such offers to those whom you consider as killers. Oh ya, you have also come up with pre-conditions. Good Luck to You.
I will stay like what I am inspite of all the provocation some of the contributors indulge in. I am sorry, but I do not like to be judgemental and do not point fingers. I’m sure you are smart enough to understand.
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK ,
I am not sure what you meant by pre-conditions. Of course in a civilized society the killers can not be a part. The existing Kashmir is having a huge chunk which have supported violence. Pandits and other civilsed people can not accept do live among the same.
In a confrence recently in Delhi, Mehbooba Mufti said that Pandits can come and visit Kashmir once in a while . She did not speak of how the terrorists have been cleaned up.I told her as well that our family values do not allow s to live among criminals.
I wont like my future generations to dicuss “trigger” and “magazines” and “mukhbirs” in their primary ages.
Panun Kashmir of course come with a pre condition like this and I dont think any civil person should have an objection to this.
Wouldnt you like to see us happy ,being neigbours across the river Vitasta.
JAK,
I wrote “As for me , i believe the only option left for Secular & Peace loving Kashmiris is a union territory of Panun Kashmir. And people like you may opt to be a part of it. It may be free from all those gun weilding, ISI follwers.”
Now its for you to guess how many would be kind of eligible in these genuine “pre conditions”
All,
Going through all these comments wasn’t easy. At times i would get angry with the comments written by X and appreciate the point put by Y. But then, isn’t it my personal opinion?
Coming back to the topic, i see all the pandits raise only one question. “Why were we killed?” Ask the one who killed mate, i was not involved.
Another question asked to muslims, “Why dont you raise your voice against terrorism?” Somehow, i dont need to do that. I feel the cause was justifiable. (Except for the killing of innocents).
I can see pandits getting angry with my statements… Thats how I feel when you write comments.
I do not represent kashmiri muslims. These are just my thoughts.
I think the point here is to spread love rather than hatred. I have been to lots of pandit sites and i find most of them harping the same old story… “Mass exodus”… Grow up, you dont even know whats happening in kashmir. For that matter nobody outside kashmir does.
We dont need sympathies, and we have grown to live with these atrocities. Atrocities from different spheres.
Cashurr,
Your thought doesnt gel well. You speak about spreading love and then say that terrorism was justfiable.
How on earth can anyone justify terrorism.
And then you feel nervous about Pandits speaking about “Mass Exodus” . Pray to God that you dont have to get uprooted from your homeland. It is painful,Cashurr and i dont think any pandit web site would have done enough justice to describe that.
Regarding what is happening inside Kashmir , i can only say that it is high time you speak against terrorists like Yasin malik , Salahuddin , etc etc
But then i know the risk involved is huge for a person like you . The masters are there to stay and wont go for the remote is across the border
Dear Guys,
It is difficult for me to follow each statement for I cannot afford to spend much time to respond. The chain has grown too long.
Pawan: If you see my comment, I never try to justify that whatever was done by the foreign rulers in India and Kashmir. It is true that most of the kings and warlords destroyed countries to maintain their ‘dabdaba’. But the king may happen to be a christian, jew, hindu or muslim. If any king had a deep understanding of his own religion, he would have never liked to kill innocents. But you must admit that these kings had li’l respect for their own religions. Do you relate the misdemeanors of those kings to their religion everytime?
English people tormented India for almost 200 yrs… Do you relate that to their religion? Many Hindu kings were not good with their own subjects, do you relate it to Hinduism. Those Muslim kings had hardly come here to spread Islam ( for force can never convert any body). They came to destroy other kingdoms for money & ego. Islamic shariah was hardly their constitution. The era of Islamic governments hardly lasted for almost 30 yrs after Prophet Mohammed and later on only an image of it existed in Ummayads, Abbasids, Ottoman Turks etc. If we wanna see Nizamme Mustafa, we literally refer to the period of Prphet Mohammed (pbuh) and the four Khalifas(pbut). Unfortunately, our politicians like Geelani used the slogans & terms as war cries. The gullible population of Kashmir got it wrong and it resulted in the chaos in Kashmir. The situation was further exploited by the intelligence agencies of both countries India & Pakistan. But the blame cannot go on Islam. If RAW is operating in some fashion in Sri Lanka, Baluchistan, Bangladesh, Sind etc, do you blame Hinduism for that.
If Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal or some other group raises slogans
(deleted)during the communal riots and slaughtering of hapless people in Delhi( Sikhs), Gujarat or Mao..and now South India…do you blame Hinduism for that?Nowadays under uncle sam’s leadership, whole Non-Muslim world is hell bent on portraying Muslims as terrorists & evil, why do you forget it was US who prepared Taliban and Al Qaida to fight against Russia in Afghanistan. Then tossed up the Kashmir issue to sell its ammunition and arsenal to India & Pakistan. Have you ever thought why the Taliban were the soldiers for US against Russia suddenly became the evil on earth? Just focus on the ‘Caspian Oil’ and Iraq Oil ..you will find many answers.
Like the rest of the world, you are more driven by the America sponsored media propoganda and not by realities. But do you relate the US indirect imperialism to christianty or much touted secularism.
By the way, how come India is secular? Can you explain. If Geelani had said that there is no relation between secularism and Islam, you better see definition of secularism as understood in West. By literal sense of the word , there is definitely no relation….. I too say that. But that doesnot say that Islamic rule is intolerant for non muslims. If that is true, then how come more than 5 million christians & jews survived the Muslim ages in the middle east. Just read jewish history, you will find that Jews were the safest during the muslim reigns. How come more 10 million Indian hindus are working in the Muslim countries with affecting their faiths.
Please donot confuse yourself with popaganda and half baked knowledge of things. Please try to see things with an open mind!
Dear Pawan,
Regarding why Indians cannot move & live in Kashmir!
The so called ’special status’ to J & K barrs any non-kashmiri to buy land in Kashmir. Correct! But how & why was the special status granted to Kashmir.
At one time, Indian leadership cajoled Kashmiri leaders to join india and were ready to give autonomy, self rule, special status etc ….wow all was bountiful! Man, Shaikh did the accession and rest is history!
The only point why you want to ask this question is because ‘you think…. why did we have this silly rule, we could have out numbered or dslodged the muslims’! Fear of numbers afterall!
JK_PUL,
While everyone respects your feelings for Muslims, let us only focus at the topic of the post in particular and on Kashmir in general. Going back into history has never helped us.
Juz A Kashmiri
JK_PUL,
It makes an interesting reading , however in your latest comment you have expressed your insecurity.
This insecurity makes you believe that Kashmiri Pandits would have been more comfortable with a “probable influx of Hindus ” and outnumbered the muslims.
Couldnt Muslims from other parts have come and settled in Kashmir ?
The problem of feeling insecure causes more alienation.
Your political understanding is almost nil for a modern world. I am not debating how “Nizam -E Mustafa” would be for non muslims. I know where it leads to . I would help you recallig the Taliban law where non muslims had to wear yellow bands to identify themselves.
Lastly , even if RAW operates in Baluchistan , it can not be termed as a Hindu Force. As India is a secular country with a Muslim President ,whom we are all proud of.
Lastly , the solution for peace is that you should stop expecting anything “Extra”. Try learning to live as one among equals.
I think i am capable of understanding the history , relegion and culture. Your arrogance again shows when you write to me that I have a half baked knowledge.
I do not want to allow this debate to take a bad turn , else i would have given you examples which you would have loved to hate.
Anyway, sooner or later I would be almost your neighbor ,across the Vitasta ,in my homeland of Panun Kashmir.
We may even meet and discuss tyour logics by crossing over the river !
Pawan,
Like has been the norm with others, I won’t jump to defend my fellow contributor’s comments. He has made his point like others keep on making – So no need to react if we do not want to or for that matter no need to come to his side either.All I would like to say let us try to leave religion aside and discuss things over which we agree even if we have different view points. It is a pointless exercise to sing paeans in favour of one religion and treat other’s faith as nothing significant – for very few of us know our own faith not to talk about other’s belief.
I keep on reading this word Nizam-E-Mustafa, and I am sure like me there are some other people who hardly know what this means. And yet we jump the gun the moment there is a mention of this. For those who would like to know more on how Prophet(PBUH) used to treat even his worst enemies may I quote an excerpt from this article by By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy, Government College for Women University of Mysore.
His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad’s heart flowed with affection and he declared, “This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free.” “This day” he proclaimed, “I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man.”
At the end of this, I would urge everyone here not to continue with any references to religion (in a negative sense).
Juz A Kashmiri
JAK,
I am not against the term “Nizam E Mustafe ” , when i wrote that it was in context of how the term was trying to be imposed on those who do not wish to part of that rule.
hi pawan,
[Quote]“And then you feel nervous about Pandits speaking about “Mass Exodus” . Pray to God that you dont have to get uprooted from your homeland. It is painful,Cashurr and i dont think any pandit web site would have done enough justice to describe that… “[/Quote]
Pray to God that you dont have to go through what every kashmiri muslim is going every day, at the hands of CRPF, BSF, SOG, STF. etc etc…
Tell you what, sitting back there on that seat and having a cup of coffee and talking about mass exodus might suit you… You do that whining, might suit you.. but what difference does it make. Last i heard about the rights of kashmiri pandits was when??? i dont see that…Though i do see once a while yasin malik inviting pandits back home. As for me, i am not a supporter of yasin malik or his kinds, but i do believe the cause was justified. The cause, an indepedent kashmiri state. Separate from india or pakistan… And by the way, what is wrong with that… Dont tell me the crap that kashmir cannot sustain of its own.
As to the support to terrorism, i dont support terrorism, i support the cause. Terrorism is killing innocents, which is equally done by both army and militants in kashmir.
As to the remote control, u seem well informed…Why dont you share this bit of information with your masters in india and have this stopped. Seems you could do it faster than me….
Cashurr,
I wonder why you resisted naming JKLF , HUM , HUJI causing problems to Kashmiris.
I think those sight of school children outside Biscoe School may have been forgotten ,because the grenade came from holy warriors called Jehadis fighting for so called “independant Kashmir.”
Yasin Malik is just another kiler who deserves nothing but the highest punishment.n to his interview on BBC ,where he TOO confesses to killings of Pandits [ Click here ]
Who is he to invite ? A Coward of first order who killed and ordered killings of innocent Kashmiri Pandits ?
I dont know why ,but you too seem to be exposing the real “you” , when you state that i can share this information with Indian Masters. Do you think India is not capable of knowing what the parasites do across the border ?
These thinking again reflects that attitude of 1990 where pandits were labelled “Mukhbirs”. I wonder what you call those terrorists who have wireless in their hands to send messages to their masters across the Border.
Well, we can discuss all this in near future and i would invite you to some coffe shop in Panun Kashmir. Maybe till then you can prepeare your argument
Pawan,
Its nice to read that you are not one of those who believe in only hatred just because of religious differences.
Nice to see you here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Hi Pawan,
Who is HUJI. (keeping arguments aside, just elaborate what they stand for.
)
The point i was trying to make is that you see terrorists in militants, and i see it in paramilitary forces… Not that some of the militants wont qualify for terrorist. Some really do and should be killed/hanged in lal chowk in front of the crowd… Man, i am not as inhuman as you are…
Read my earlier comment properly. I said i hate the kinds of yasin malik….
[Quote]I wonder what you call those terrorists who have wireless in their hands to send messages to their masters across the Border.[/Quote]
I wouldn’t know… Were there any? How do you know?
BTW, what does panun kashmir mean? Would really like to hear from you? A kashmir without kashmiri muslims? … And i would realy love to have kahwa with you in kashmir any given day [See, i still am sticking to kashmiri tradition, unlike you, who is inviting me to coffee]… Would really love to be the host? [ I invite you from the depth of my heart, and it is a sincere invite...]
Take care brother,
Cashurr ,
Though it is easy for you to pretend,but it is much easir for me to understand .
1 . Still , let me explain to you what HUJI is .The HUJI, like other Pakistan-based terrorist outfits functions under the patronage of the Inter Services Intelligence. While in J&K, it strives to ensure the secession of the State from India through terrorist violence, in other parts of India it aims to spread terror and consequently endanger the internal security scenario.
2. Cashurr , you have probably forgotten that despite me not being in Kashmir I know Kashmir and Kashmiris better than you…..probably. So I know who the masters are , and how these Pakistani Mukhbirs operate. Do you have any doubt ? If you have, you are probably too ignorant about Kashmir and its politics.
3. Regarding Panun Kashmir , your insecurity still shows. Panun Kashmir is not a desired place only for a particular community,but for the Pandits and those who believe in the secular traditions,where the constitution and flag of India would be supreme. It would be a union territory.No, it is not a Hindu Homeland that we are seeking. We fully identify with tbe secular-democratic-pluralism of our country, so how can we ask for a Hindu homeland ?
4. Thank you for your invitation for a Kehwa. Would love to have it sometimes in future . However my invitation for coffe still stand.And that does not mean we have given up our tradition. We have learnt to live in different parts of the word and it is but natural to adapt some of the general way of living of that particular region as well.
Again a sincere invite from my side , just pray to God that we I get our homeland.
In Panun Kashmir , you can smell the coffee well.
I wanted to be the 100th to comment
Pawan,
Although this last comment of yours hasn’t go too much relevance with the subject, but I do not want it to go away – as it shows that we might be very aggresive with our words with our comments we should not let go of our softer side. You have revealed it here and I am pleased to say have really won some hearts here.
Coming back to the topic at hand, I know you do not want me to respond to every comment here, but I would like to make a quick comment here and let the discussion move on.
1. HuJI is actually an acronym for Harkat-ul-Jahad-e-Islami. This organisation used to be in the news at the peak of the “armed struggle” but no one has heard about it till recently. I guess you recall this name because of that letter which is attributed to them. But I am not sure if Caashurr remembers that. May be that is why he asked this question.
2. No comments, but I would request you if we cannot make personal comments like You do not know and I know better. This request of mine is to every contributor. Let’s not be judgemental.
3. Panun Kashmir if I know my mother tounge – it means Our Kashmir. Now who all come under the term “Our” that is not clear. But if it means carving out a separate state, I am not sure if such a demand can or cannot be tagged as “secessionist”. If possible may we some more information on this.
4. Kehwa or Coffee… Well either would do, provided we reach a stage when Pawan can sit with some Yousuf (no aliases) and not when Caashur meets Sharnarthi (unknown identities).
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan,
I pray that KPs return & regain their homeland Kasheer as you aspire. But I am unfazed by your comments that I am arrogant & don’t understand modern politics. Well that is not our argument here. I don’t hate you or anybody or something that you write but yeah, your comments try to reveal your personality. You are trying to defame our religion by citing some examples of misguided kings but you are not answering other questions!
India is not secular because our beloved Abdul Kalam is PoI. It was the so-called ‘modern politics’ whereby a great scientist like APG A K was removed from defence and space research and given a powerless position of the country where his own skills remain limited to writing books and giving secular face to Indian communal policies. Anyhow I admire his personality as every human should because of his greatness. But anyhow you always forget to appreciate him as a Muslim but you try to raise mud on Islam when you encounter examples like Osama B L or Taliban.
I don’t understand what you refer as a modern politics or international politics….because you have expressed your ‘ lovable hate comments’!
You have answered none of questions regarding the relation of misdeeds of other nations and their relationships just in the name of ‘modern politics’. What is this modern politics of yours?
Anyhow, I respect your views although I differ a lot with your opinions.
JAK,
Your knowledge about terrorists and terrorism is not good enough. HUJI represents three organisations in particulr ie Al Faran , Al Mansurian and one more …it would take me some time to recall.
Besides that HUJI has been very notorious for lethal attacks on civilians , one of its famous attacks being at the American centre in Kolkotta. If you recall “Ansari” ex -member of “D” gang was also associated with HUJI.
Again HUJI is very very agressive in Bangladesh , but then we are not discussing that country here.
If Cashurr ,does not know HUJI, he should not debate on Kashmir and Terrorism. I wonder if he has forgotten “Allah Tigers”.
Panun Kashmir does mean “Our Kashmir” , but of course it would be a different geographical entity. Not everything once translated can give a correct picture. The name of Kashmir came from sage Kashyapa , but would sage Kashyapa , if born again, love to live in Kashmir again ? Again it can be Our Kashmir for those who belive in secularism and peace.
Our genuine demand for a Homeland does not hurt anybody ’s intrests as we have no desire to encroach upon the legitimate rights of others. Infact, there are clear indications that the Sessionists among Muslim majority is irked by our capacity to bear silently the sufferings heaped upon us than by our waking up to our rights. The grant of a Homeland to displaced Kashmiris will be the greatest stumbling block to their design of enforcing their version of poitical and religious dispensation in the whole of the valley and spare this part of the valley from degenerating into a theocratic enclave.
I am surprised to hear from you that PK may be termed as “secessionist”. If you meant “secessionist” from Violence and terrorism and relegious fanatics….then YES.
Lastly , as far as I am concerned I dont write under aliases and hide behind them.
I would be pleased to send you more information about PK , if you so desire. Who knows you too would like to live in that place ?
Pawan,
First of all may I mention I do not condone violence against innocent human beings regardless of whosoever the flag bearers of such inhuman acts are. The point that I wanted to highlight is I am not sure the name HuJI is heard of that regularly these days.
Regarding tagging PK as secessionist, May I suggest a relook at my previous post.. “I am not sure if such a demand can or cannot be tagged as “secessionist”
While posting this comment I tried to do a little bit of googling on the word secession and came up with these two defnitions “1. the act of dividing or disconnecting; 2. the act of breaking away or withdrawing from”. I am sure I do not need to say much now. You can make your own mind.
As far as my interest in PK goes; I would like to mention that I think in order to be successful in life one should not confine the study or research to only those realms which are in your favour. I am only trying to not fail.
Juz A Kashmiri
JK_PUL,
Do you really mean this ststement that “India is not secular because our beloved Abdul Kalam is PoI. It was the so-called ‘modern politics’ whereby a great scientist like APG A K was removed from defence and space research and given a powerless position of the country where his own skills remain limited to writing books and giving secular face to Indian communal policies.”
It has really made me laugh , and this is a new joke for me.
I has made me recall those days in Kashmir when even a shortage of “Dalda” or power switch off was termed as “CENTRICH CHAAL”.
I wonder why JAK said that the things have changed in Kashmir,atleast the basic thinking has not.
BTW , have you hear this Vaakh Of Lalleshwari
Choora akh wuchhum watta paanchh meinaan,
Khevaan chavaan ta taav taav karaan;
Dalimati magazav watti watti pheiraan,
Hairaan ta wairaan, saar na-kenh soaraan
Translation :A thief I saw roaming the five streets. Mind which is nothing but a bundle of thoughts and desires is the thief referred to. It reaches out, makes contact with and enjoys the objects of the world, through the five senses of touch, taste, sight, sound and smell. It gathers unto itself the impressions from these objects forming veil upon veil of ignorance. Since the objects are not permanent, the impressions gathered therefrom cannot be lasting either. They are but passing shadows without any substance and are therefore referred to as ignorance. Having lost its marbles, this thief (mind) bis wallowing in sense pleasures, completely baffled and bewildered and utterly ruined with nothing to show for its troubles.
God Bless
Dears,
Some of our friends again misunderstand the word ‘Nizame Mustafa’ when I cited the definition above. I had mentioned that the hapless KMs fell prey to the slogans like ‘Nizame Mustafa’ but they never meant what it means. I have never tried to justify whether Nizame Mustafa was going to be a solution of a multicultural society like ours (although I personally believe so like every other muslim knows). I donot say that whether Nizame Mustafa will be a solution to Kashmir or Ram Rajya will be a solution. I believe that Kashmir Problem is a political problem where our separatist groups used the religious sentiments for gaining public support illegitimately. The problem with Kashmir issue is not the religion but the idealogy which divided India into three countries and kept our state boiling since 1947 is still finding acceptance amongst the majorities of India. Kashmiris accepted Indian constitution in 1947 conditionally ( instead of Pak). It is not a question whether it was the outcome of events or it was India’s good policy or Pak’s bad policy. What our previous & present generation has seen is a lot of political instability and bloodshed. Even after accepting Indian constitution, KPs & KMs were always divided on political issues.
JK_PUL ,
I appreciate your candid statemet . Very few have Kashmiris have the guts to state that “separatist groups used the religious sentiments for gaining public support illegitimately”
Secondly , when India was divided, the people of Princely state did not have the option to chose. It was the option of the rulers to chose the accession and in the case of J&K , the ruler opted for India.
JK_PUL and Pawan,
I am not sure the last few posts of yours are doing any good to the cause for which we have started this blog.
Please refrain from discussing ir-relevant material here.
Juz A Kashmiri
JK_PUL & Pawan,
Posts deleted. I hope you agree that these were not very relevant. For any concern you may contact me.
Juz A Kashmiri
I don’t know about this debate but at least, we would put an end to the ‘Kahwa and coffee’ debate.
Click here to know more
You may think that it’s highly irrelevant but I hope you go through it and see the irony. The irony is that we do not see the similarity and choose to see the differences. History not only causes us to differ with each other but it can also bind us in a common culture.
Dear Vinayak,
I think I had read this post quite some time ago on your blog. Although I feel its not relevant, I let it stay just to cool-off the tempers (as one contributor suggested over an email). Cooling off by kehwa – some may say how is that possible. I meant cooling off by discussing some off beat things for a while.
Till we see again.
Juz A Kashmiri
Vinayak,
Thanks for that bit of info… Having tasted turkish coffee, i would hardly say it resembles :soun kahwa:. It tastes awfull..
OOPS, i strayed from the topic. JAK will have me deleted.
Pawan,
Why do your comments make me laugh?
Your knowledge about terrorists and terrorism is not good enough. HUJI represents three organisations in particulr ie Al Faran , Al Mansurian and one more …it would take me some time to recall.
Besides that HUJI has been very notorious for lethal attacks on civilians , one of its famous attacks being at the American centre in Kolkotta. If you recall “Ansari” ex -member of “D” gang was also associated with HUJI.
Man, i believe you know about HUJI more than the people who might be in that organisation… Or are you part of them… Just wondering…
I definitely feel that you know more about pakistani mukhbirs or the kinds.. Do i smell a mukhbir here? I guess, i do…
The only problem you have is that you THINK you know kashmiries well, and unfortunately… (i dont have to say that)
Regarding Panun Kashmir , your insecurity still shows. Panun Kashmir is not a desired place only for a particular community,but for the Pandits and those who believe in the secular traditions,where the constitution and flag of India would be supreme. It would be a union territory.No, it is not a Hindu Homeland that we are seeking. We fully identify with tbe secular-democratic-pluralism of our country, so how can we ask for a Hindu homeland ?
Panun kashmir. Yesterday, i visited the site PanunKashmir, … It doesn’t look like kashmiri muslims are welcome. With the venom you are spewing at kashmiri muslims, you expect them to join you in panun kashmir. Looks like someone is swearing at the other and then welcoming him home…This one was really hillarious. Wake up buddy, “Jaagoo mohanpyaaray, Jaagooo”.. That is hypocrisy at its best. Sorry mate, i dont believe you.
You remind me of a small child, who argues just for the sake of an argument. My statement about kahwa was to be taken as a JOKE. (Pun intended). Unfortunately, you take every statement as if you have to answer it, argue for the sake of an arguement…
Cashurr,
If I know so much about HUJI , so do I know about Taliban . Does that make me a “Mukhbir” for uncle Sam ?
Unforyunately you have aversty to people knowing the truth. In this age of Information , you want Pandits to be ignorant like they were in 1990 and caught with surprise & shock.Ignorant of what their neigbours were plotting.
Regarding you comments on Panun Kashmir , you can atleast know that even you would be much safer in that Place where the non violent pandits live.
However if the violence has become way of life and an addiction, the other side of Vitasta is better thing .
Again quoting Lalleshwari ( lal Ded )
Ami pana so’dras nAvi ches lamAn
Kati bozi Day myon meyti diyi tAr
Ameyn tAkeyn poniy zan shemAn
Zuv chum bramAn gara gatshaha.
Translation :
With a rope of loose-spun thread am I towing
my boat upon the sea.
Would that God heard my prayer
and brought me safe across!
Like water in cups of unbaked clay
I run to waste.
Would God I were to reach my home!
Dear Sharnarthi,
Nice to see you back. Your comment has been found to be too abusive and so there it goes. May I suggest having a talk with Pawan on the ettiquettes of good healthy discussion. Your use of words like “arrogant” and “you people” is simply not acceptable. I challenge you once again to point out a single word where I have been abusive to the general Pandit community. Your words are simply unacceptable.
Just for your information, May I mention that I am a Pro-Kashmiri neither Pro-X nor Pro-Z, so please desist from portraying folks like me as the ones who are in love with the dictator ruled country.
Oh by the way you had pointed out we live on Indian Exchequer, I do not agree but its your choice of words so I won’t say anything, … Isn’t it ironic the country from where you earn your bread and butter, was once… much similar to our scenario (Anyway I do not want to say too much, You are smart enough to know that)
Caashurr and other friends,
It is a humble request not to post irrelevant material here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Coming back to Kashmiri Pandits, did u read the latest lies of Yasin Malik where he says that he doesn know who killed Kashmiri pandits. If you re interested …just read my blog
Click here to read this
JAK,
Will try to be as relevant as i can. Will try to address the issues raised by pandit brother, pawan.
Pawan,
Do you really know the truth about Taliban? Is that piece of truth based on the news coming from CNN or BBC or few websites? For knowing truth, you need to hear both parties. Do you know the other side of the story? I dont. And thats why i wont say i know the truth about Taliban. May be you do…
As to the word aversty, honestly, i couldn’t find it in dictionary. My vocabulary, as you might have observed by now, is too bad. Have to refer to dictionary every now and then.
If you meant that I dont like the people seeking truth, you might be wrong….I completely agree with and am looking for people who uphold truth. Truth, as in Truth, not what you get from newspapers and news channels. Not half truths. Last time when i was having a discussion with another pandit brother, he went to the extent of saying that lal chowk fire was started by militants; when i was witness to it all and saw who did that… Do you believe in such truths. Were you referring to such truths. Do you really know what is going on in kashmir. Do you accept the fact that atrocities are comitted by Paramilitary forces. THAT IS THE TRUTH, BROTHER.
And the truth is also that some militants (we could call them terrorists), killed innocent pandits in early 90s.
Regarding you comments on Panun Kashmir , you can atleast know that even you would be much safer in that Place where the non violent pandits live.
Non violent pandits. Violence has many forms and panun kashmir site in itself is one of them. Portraying every kashmiri as a militant, Portraying muslims as something which should be completely wiped of this earth. And then you politely invite me to that land. WOW, you got guts man…
REMARKS DELETED(cuz it seems truth has versions)…Cashurr,
If India says that Pakistanis are supprting terrorim in Kashmir , it does not necessarily mean all Pakistanis. It represents the majority view.
Same is the case of Pandits. Do you deny that majority of muslims were muste spectators with no sympatthies when pandits were killed and uprooted. Did even a single person raise a concern ? Today the things may be other way as your insecurty has grown due to your own infightings and suspuscion.
When you say that security forces go on rampage , it needs to be understood that in the first case they would also not like to shoot. But when he sees a fellow soldier dying , he would definetely react . I am not justifying those isolated cases , but showing you the mirror to a human tendency.
But i do wonder why you keep quite when a greande is thrown at innocent people outside Lal Ded Hospital or Biscoe School.Isnt it a way to behave like a ostrich,head burried in the sand.
What about the tragic incident at “Wular Lake”. Though I agree that Army should not have carried so many children on a single boat and that too on dangerous lake , but I wondered nobody blamed the principal.
Now please dont tell me that the Army put a gun on the principal’s head and said they would carry the children.
That incident was again shown as if Army did it delibrately.
You need to grow up and think logically.
We never say that muslims need to wiped out ? Why should we. They have a faith to follow and they can have that space.
Regarding Makhdoom Sahib, i do accept that I have faith in the place. So did Indira Gandhi. And I have faith in Nund Ryosh as well ( You may preffer to call SHEIKH NUR-UD-DIN ) , so do I visit in Ajmer Sherrif.I also visit Gurdwara and church .
Do you visit Temples ?
Caashurr,
I repeat let us not digress into a debate of religions. I have to expunge your remarks on comparisons between faiths.
Juz A Kashmiri
Hello Pawan,
To answer your question of Temples, i will have to write few lines and they will be “expunged” by JAK. So, i would rather keep them to myself. I do visit temples, gudwara, church, ofcourse not for praying.
Coming back to the main topic…
Honestly, i am suprised to see the justification coming from you for the actions of paramilitary forces. Killing innocents, raping girls, and all you have to say is human tendency…
Regarding the voice of muslims against the killing of pandits… I hear it from pandits in every discussion that they have with muslims… Do you have anything else to say? Dont you think … Leave it, you wont…
Having argued on lots of points, may i ask you a question?
JAK,
You don’t agree that you live on Indian Exchequer? That’s GREAT !!!
May I know on whose exchequer you live? India’s or Pakistan’s or Saudi Arabia’s? It has to be someone who is funding the economy of Kashmir. I am sure you know how much money India has spent on Kashmir.
Also, let me ask you a simple question? What is your citizenship? Which passport do you own?
Take care
Cashurr,
You want pandits to stop speaking and exposing people who have perpetuated crimes against a race ?
What strong expectations ?
The people in Kashmir have created a genocide aganist Kashmiri Pandits and the world should know about it .
What makes you feel embarassed when we speak about it ? I have a feeling ……..but let it not be written…..for you would have understood.
Comming back to Army indscipline, we condemn it . Whether a innocent is killed or a female is raped . It is not human .
However the facts speak that many army men have been convicted and punished for these acts , while as not a single terrorists has been convicted for killings of Kashmiri Pandits .
Would you dare to demand that ?
However if you wont dare that , i know your own insecurity.
Lastly , would you prefer to take a boat to cross the vitasta to reach Panun Kashmir or would you take a toll bridge ?
Dear Pawan,
The chain of comments has grown long here, many bloggers have commented the way they wanted, we have tried to understand each other but have we?? I know you will say, restore pre-1989 status and we will say, give us Azaadi…same old chicken & egg story.
KPs left the valley and we stayed back, KP supported India and KMs supported seccessionist movement…. this is a bitter truth. I am trying to understand whether our argument on net will solve our problem? I understand that we are not contributing towards a solution rather we tend to be a part of the problem. You quote history from certain views and we quote history from some other views… and WE KEEP ON FIGHTING.
Guys, why did JAK start this chain ? Just to spit venom on each other or to understand each other problems?
Honestly, after learning the views of many KPs & KMs , my optimism has been almost grounded.
Sharnarthi,
You raised a very important point and I think I should have tried to explain my view point earlier itself. Yes, I do not “repeat not” agree to your point of view that regarding us living off Indian Exchequer. I earn my bread and butter Haak-Batt out of my own efforts, whether I am in Srinagar or Delhi or UK. I am not on the payrolls of either India or Pakistan…. And yes neither Saudi Arabia.
By the way whose exchequer are you living on – May be Britain or US where you work or the country to which your company actually belongs. Grow up man, gone are the days when Kashmiris would feel dependent just because they would be told Chandii petth youss rasadd khaalaan chhiv, su ti hendoostan sozan The rice you get from the PDS comes from India.
I think you criticise just for the heck of it. With nothing to debate on, you jump to issues like Passport, citizenship and what not. Now let me tell you something – Kashmiris still have the distinction which no other state in India has. Need I tell you that. Now just that one document called the “state subject” is enough for us to know that we are distinct from the most.
Waiting for some more golden words from you.
Juz A Kashmiri
Pawan,
I simply could not keep myself away from responding to your comments. I would like to quote your words before responding.
The people in Kashmir have created a genocide aganist Kashmiri Pandits and the world should know about it .
Are you sure you are not generalising the scenario here. Your words people in Kashmir. I think you need a rethink.
May I request for the statistics related to the number of army men (security personnel) convicted or punished for their inhuman acts. I am sure the list will not consume more than a quarter of a A4 page. Try it, if it is more please let me know.
Now coming to militants, It seems you are ignorant of the situation. The security apparatus is so brilliant in Kashmir that even the famous Minority Report may be put to shame. Even before the crime is committed the agencies are already aware of who the plotter is going and very soon (after the crime) he is liquidated / encountered. As per Police’s own claims any terrorist involved in heinous acts is arrested or liquidated very soon, so whom do you want to convict.. Some innocents like Pathribal massacre, Oh you must know that – innocent civilians killed and branded as foreign militants.. DNA fiasco.. Chargesheets and no conviction..
You are well aware so no need to provide links. For others, may I suggest this this link from Harvard University for more information.
Keep your thoughts coming.
Juz A Kashmiri
JK_PUL,
My optimism stays and will stay even in the face of some severe criticism and even in the face of very strong pessimism.
Discussing things on internet will not solve the problem, but confining ourselves to closets is compounding the imbroglio. The thought of Kashmir without Pandits is as futile as Panun Kashmir sans Muslims. We all have to come to that common understanding first.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Juz,
I strongly agree with your view but I find mostly people do more arguments than discussions. But I hope my enthusiam and optimism doesn’t give way to despair. Keep it up man…you are doing good!
JAK :I know I have generalised my statement. That is how politics is discussed. When somebody states that Kashmiris Want “Azadi” , what does it mean ? Does rest of your brethren count the wishes of Kashmiri Pandits.
Of course not !
Who were the people who came out on the streets on January 19th or 20th of 1990 ? Were they not Kashmiris ? Who were the people who made us homeless ?
Or do you have some doubts about the genocide itself ?
Again for Army atleast the conviction has been there . Kindly write to me the same quarter of page of those terrorists who have been convicted.
JAK , I still recall the role of the tallest leader of J&K, whose graveyard is now a protected monument. If the leader like him is not spared of the worst, Pandits are still off.
JAK,
It amazes me how you avoid the direct questions and come up with your theories. Agreed that you, like all of us, earn your haak-batta. But is it only the Haak-Batta that you need to survive? What about everything else? Education, Medical, Social programs, Security, Energy, Other utilities? Who pays for that? How much taxes one pays in Kashmir? Do people in Kashmir pay for Electricity and Water? Do they pay Wealth Taxes? NO, NO and NO. So don’t deny the fact that you and all others in Kashmir do live off on Indian Exchequer to which they don’t contribute even a single paisa.
As I said earlier, you are unpatriotic and that is sickening. Don’t talk about Article 370. That is the biggest blunder that our past politicians have done. That “state subject” certificate is the one that has spoiled Kashmiri Muslims. They think they can have that “State Subject” certificate as well as exploit all Indian Resources and still demand Azadi and/or merger with that dying Talibanized nation of Pakistan.
I also hope that you WILL answer Pawan’s question about who were the folks screaming thru the Mosques’ loudspeakers during the night of Jan. 19, 1990 and who were the folks who supported the genocide of Kashmiri Pandits in the valley…..Well, to get a direct and honest answer from you would be asking for the moon. Isn’t that true?
Sharnarthi,
I will try to keep my reply short. So let me attempt to answer your questions directly.
I pay my taxes – every kind of tax and so do countless many in Kashmir; don’t be mistaken. You may write NO another 100 times but it doesn’t change the situation. If they are not paying wealth tax or service tax, its because these taxes are not applicable there. So your argument of single paisa and what not holds no water.
I am a patriot – and I do not care what others think. I am in love with my nation i.e., my motherland my Kashmir. You talked about Article 370, for me it doesn’t have any relevance when you have half-a-million troops to get just a fistful of aatankwaadis.
And yes how can you stop advocating for others from your community – I had read a word “ghetto” and I am doing my best not to apply it to the way you think. People who were “screaming” were common people and people who carried the genocide were terrorists. I know this is as direct a answer one can give you, but you would not be satisfied.
So please carry on doing what you do the best.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Sharnarthi,
C’mon man..nobody lives on Indian exchequer.Not even you. Nobody is evading taxes in Kashmir. What knowledge you have about the financial systems? True that centre has been piping in funds to support the state government like it does for other states but you cannot say that we are living on your money. Let me tell you that we are paying all kinds of taxes according to the regional rules and regulations. You must be knowing that only public sector and government sector exists in Kashmir where the pay scales are low enough to be liable for no tax or nominal tax . As far as business class is concerned, they pay their taxes but like most other parts of India , they have ways to evade taxes using the loop holes of the government rules. However, nowadays people who work in private sector like me, pay more tax than the annual salary of a gazzeted officer in Kashmir. But talk of public services…. education, roads, public health, law etc are almost non-existent there. In fact, that is a country-wide phenomenon.
Regarding indian passport and state subject, I am still amazed at the way you guys think. Earlier you were citing the history of kashmir dating back to 14th century to taint the Muslim rulers…but you always miss to mention why the article 370, state subject issues came into picture in Kashmir. You can’t simply brush it aside saying that it is political mistake…it is a political mistake for only 8% population of Kashmir but not rest 92% poplulation.
Hey friends, try to be realistic in your approach and things will look better. Donot exaggerate things for nothing. The politics of hatred will take us nowhere.
JAK,
FINALLY !!!! U SAID IT!!!!!
“People who were “screaming” were common people and people who carried the genocide were terrorists.”
I am now satisfied. That is all I wanted to hear from you. So you finally agreed that it was “common people” who were “screaming” thru those loud-speakers from the mosques during the night of Jan. 19, 1990. And the world knows what their slogans were.
So I rest my case that “common people” were involved in and supported Kashmiri Pandits’ ethnic cleansing from the valley.
I take your leave from this blog now.
Sharnarthi
Sharnarthi,
I am not sure about what is it that has made you so excited. You are screaming as if you just had an “Eureka” experience. Oh had I known that you were this ignorant, I would have never made you wait this long.
You rest your case or do whatever but don’t generalise the things.
Juz A Kashmiri
P.S: You will surely be missed.
Sharnathi,
Let us appreciate the candid statement of JAK. Common masses get swayed by fantasies and so did happen in Kashmir .
However the other side of story is that though we had a past experience and more so after 1986 episode in AnantNag , we were not thinking rationally and probably never expected what eventually did happen.
But i would surely remind JK_PUL , of subsidies available in J&K and would help him recall that for more than a decade almsot all population of Kashmir did not pay even their electricity bill. Leave alone sales taxes.
Pawan
JAK ,
Mehjoor had written this verse long back, but the reality is something else
Hend Ratan Nav Khur Wayan Ahal-Din,
Nav yami Mulkech, Chalovow Pan Wanen.
Dear Pawan,
During the phase between 1990 till 2005 ( & even today), in Kashmir J & K , the administration was defunct because of the turmoil. No office is still working properly. During this period, definitely no person paid electricity, water, or other bills. It wasn’t because people didn’t want to pay but because of lack of administration. But then, just check today when everybody is paying electricity bills ( under pressure from government , of course), how much electricity do we really get. Go to any government department & see… e.g. I had to pay 5000 INR in passport office to get my new born daughter’s passport done because ‘police verification’ was pending and INR 5k got it done! I don’t blame GOI for this mess ( for it was a consequence of the armed rebellion) but at the same time I donot accept the theory that Kashmiri people lived on the subsidy aka mercy of India.
In any republic or democratic government, the beauty of the system is depicted by the fact that politicians need to work hard through economic, social , idustrial & educational reforms of the society but unfortunately in Kashmir, these things were not a prerequisite for any government. Only being a ‘ghulam-e-dilli’ was sufficient. Ironically, the KPs who comprised the elite class of our society and have always contributed siginificantly to the development of the state and the country used to be happy when ‘the dilli sarkar’ used to play with our ‘democratic sarkar’. Just because the KPs always considered India closer than their own Kashmiris. The only reason for them to so is or was ‘religion’. The continous turbulence in Kashmir politics corrupted the minds of youth with rebellion and rest is history.
Even at this point of time, if we all be realistic we may drive our minds towards positive solutions . But are we? Just ponder for a while, are we as more literate and less educated people contributing towrads the betterment of our current situation. As a technocrat ,am I thinking about the imrpovement of my society, as an educator , is Pawan or somebody else doing his role to improve the situation of his own fellow KPs who have gone through the agony of miltitancy & migration. We are all filled with more emotional politics and less emotional intelligence.
Let us all get and work together to help those need instead of using the ‘lovely windows platform’ to spread hate.
Pawan,
Let me tell you that it is a fact that no electricity bill was paid by the masses from the start of the strife. But it is also a fact that all unpaid dues were cleared once the normalcy started to return.
As far as sales-taxes are concerned, I am sure you will acknowledge the fact that this movement (or give it any name you like) was not for evading taxes. So non-payment of taxes was the effect rather than an end in itself. If those taxes were not paid it was more out of the inability of the state administration rather than the un-willingness of the people to pay.
By the way, traders all over would love to avoid taxes like VAT, GST if they could so Kashmiris are no different.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan & Sharnarthi,
Leaving all debates and dicussions aside, forget India and Pakistan, forget about KP & KM, should we not consider the option of KPs returning back to Kashmir. I am not asking this question as a politician but as a normal kashmiri. Out of 50K KP families who had migrated how many of you have actually settled outside Kashmir and how many are still facing the cruel conditions of climate, culture & poverty.
I don’t know how many KPs are willing to return but I understand that all of you people must return back to Kashmir whatever it takes. Home is where heart is. I can feel that from my KP friends & now my blogo-friends that you guys love kashmir perhaps more than we do actually. You must return back at the earliest.
I am nobody to say that you will be welcome by KMs but it is your right to return and you must return.
I hope I am touching anybody’s emotional nerves but I really wish from my heart that you must regain your homeland back irrespective of whether you have settled outside or not.
Nowadays I hear that many KP families are returning to stay there for short periods atleast. But you all deserve to be there always! I pray that Allah accepts our prayer and helps you to regain your homeland.
A correction:
Read ‘I hope I am touching anybody’s emotional nerves’ as ‘I hope I am not touching anybody’s emotional nerves’.
JK_PUL & JAK
Firstly coming to electricity bill, i hope you know that the Govt had to invoke a rule wherein the Govt employee had to show his payment of the bill to get his salary released. This happened few years back, and I hope I am not wrong from what had appeared in the press.
I agree the administartion was in turmoil,but that did not mean that they board was not accepting the fees only.
My friend, your reasons seem illogical.
Coming back to Kashmir, I would surely say that home is where the heart is.And most of the recent do have their hearts back in Kashmir. The only thing their are carrying along is their mind and it deters them to seek the truth and tsake a wise decesion. The wise decesion is that there is no guarantee that the 1990 would not be repeated. Our likkers still roam free, and we need justice to be served.
Regarding the passport issue, you would be surprised that even KP’s who were just born in Kashmir have to undergo their passport verification in Kashmir. That is the Govt rule for the reasons best known to Govt. Even those KP’s who are settled in Delhi since 1947 have to get their passport renewed only after verification done in Kashmir. In my pssport my place of bith is Srinagar and I have get it renewed after Kashmir verification. Just imagine who is going to do the verification of people who have left Kashmir either 50 years or 17 years back. It is equally tough,but not a reason enough to be a sessionist and start bad mouthing our own country.
I agree that it is our right to go back to Kashmir, but i would add that we would for sure go back, but on our own terms.
I would touch upon the subject of KP’s being settled down separately as already this comment has piled up a long.
I would end this with a quote from Saint lalleshwari again :
“grratta chu pheraan zere zere ”
Translation :-
Sure and steady the mill will turn
once you propel the wheel.
Mind is the pivot, it should know
how best to turn the mill.
And once it turns, it will grind fine,
And grain will find its way to the mill.
It should have been “The only thing their are carrying along is their mind and it deters them fall again and instead to seek the truth and tsake a wise decesion”
and not
The only thing their are carrying along is their mind and it deters them to seek the truth and tsake a wise decesion
Dear Pawan,
Well I do not intend malign the image of India by saying that we have to pay bribes to get our jobs done in government offices. I was trying to portray what was the situation of administration in Kashmir in last 15 yrs.
I don’t want to say why we need verification for a passport but how the system works is an issue. ( If you had read comments carefully, I had not put blame on India).
I had not stated that ‘corruption’ was or wasn’t the reason for the seccessionist movement.
As far as justice is concerned, why Indian government is not testifying the guilty? Our judicial system must take care of that. It is not a common man like me or you who is to be blamed.
I had suggested you to return but had I asked for conditions? There will be no conditions on either side. There are questions on your mind about the uncertainties surrounding us but that is with us all!
You may start a new blog on the settlement of Kashmir but I know barring some examples most of you must be living in miserable conditions.
Who can disgree with Lalla- Arifa or Lalla Ded or Lalleshwari?
Great Luck!
read : settlement of KPs.
Dear Pawan,
About Electricity Board:
I didn’t write EBK did not accept bills but had they produced electricity or even printed bills. Had they followed their jobs?
But then I know all of us paid all dues when the department sought. Anyhow this is not something we must discuss now. Perhaps you were going through the cruel migration agony while kashmir was burning & there was hardly anybody to work in offices during those days.
Pawan,
Just a clarification for you… None of my family members was in any gov’t service or anything similar and similar was the case with countless others who paid their electricity bills.
Come to think of it, Kashmir imbroglio is very complex and what are we talking about – Electricity Bills and Sales Tax. I think we are doing a gross injustice to those who have fallen prey to the violence from either sides.
Juz A Kashmiri
Phew!!! Coming back to this post after a few days and its already too long a discussion to follow…
A few cursory comments:
JAK Said: “If you think that I have to always indulge in appeasement of Pandits and mindless criticism of Kashmiris then I am sorry you are on an absolutely wrong track.”
So dear… you already are counting Pandits and Kashmiri’s as two mutually exclusive entities. Thanks for making yourself clear.
JK_PUL said: “I believe that Nizame Musatafa is something that all humans crave for. Just learn first, what is ‘ Nizame Mustafa’.”
In simple words, I do NOT crave for a Nizam-e-Mustafa. Maybe you can proclaim that I am not human – and still have your statement upheld as truth. Nizam-e-Mustafa to me means getting slotted as a second class citizen with no rights and no freedom of religion, as we have seen happen to religious minorities in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Nizam-e-Mustafa to me means that it’s legal to kill and convert infidels – and win over the luxury of 70 virgins in heaven. I don’t want to be killed for someone to win his ticket to heaven.
To me, Nizam-e-mustafa means getting places of religious and cultural tolerance gutted – as Mast Gul did in Chrar’. And given that Afghan, Moroccan, Syrians and all other kind of Arab terrorists and mercenaries were in the valley ruling the roost – amply aided, supported and welcomed by the local Muslim population, there was no scope for any of Pandits to even consider welcoming Nizam-E-Mustafa.
Cashurr’ said: “Pray to God that you dont have to go through what every kashmiri muslim is going every day, at the hands of CRPF, BSF, SOG, STF. etc etc…”
Jenab Cashurr’ saab, I definitely pray for all such souls… but someday – I would love to hear from you and JAK – as to what really prompted KM’s to invite the Hizb and Laskhars, Ul-ansars and Tayabaa’s…the HUJI, the Al-jehad, the JKLFs, Al Faran , Al Mansurian, Allah Tigers, the Ansars and all other kind of Afghan and Arab mercenary terrorists into the valley and vitiate the environment in late 1980’s… there was no CRPF, BSF, SOG, STF etc etc back then. Then why…? A Kashmiri Pandit still hasn’t understood really what it was that changed overnight… And that’s why a Kashmiri Pandit still believes that he was killed just because of his religion.
Cashurr’ said: “you see terrorists in militants, and i see it in paramilitary forces…”
Which came first – Chicken or the egg?
JK_PUL,
Being honest most of us do not live in miserable condition any more. I dont know how the majority in Kashmir will read it as. A good or a bad news !
What makes us proud is that we have moved on. Most of us are having their own houses ( If we still dont call it home)
We are probably the only community in the world ,that despite the genocide and despite not having a refugee status (despite being one ), we have become the “real leaders”.
No begging, no prostitution , no thefts.
Is there a bigger example in the world.
Even if may not settle back in Kashmir,most of us would still buy a piece of Kashmir.
Amen
I am really glad to hear that. And you rightly deserve to be proud of it.
Dear Soul_in_Exile,
Well, whatever is happening in the so called Muslim countries or what is getting projected in media every now & then, it is not what is Nizame Mustafa. I don’t say that KP must have or should welcome Nizame Musfata but it is true that KMs swayed into emotions when ‘freedom was started in the name of Nizame Mustafa’.
I am not sure if the foreign mercenaries were present in Kashmir in early 90’s but yes, KM youth joined the armed struggle in hordes. As a normal human being, I understand the insecurity that the minorities must have gone through when everything seemed to be going against them. Freedom struggle aka militancy was nurtured by the people across border.
If I say that KM didn’t support ‘mujahideen’ , I must be lying. However, my intention here is not to convince you about Nizame Mustafa.
Dear Soul in Exile,
Good to see you back. It seems that while I was away there has been a good deal of activity here. You have taken my words too literally – What I meant that I would never resort to any kind of appeasement of Pandits nor do I intend to criticise those still living in Kashmir for no reason at all.
Your notion of me having treated the two as separate entities is not correct. I wrote “Kashmiris” since we still have non-Muslims who are happy enough to have stayed back. And by Pandits I meant all those who think we are at fault for everything.
As far as your inputs on Nizam-E-Mustafa are concerned, I have to say that though you claim to have read my posts but it seems you have done so with a pre-conceived plan to filter out comments which may dent your view point. You may still disagree, or click here
I am sure that should be an eye-opener what Nizam-E-Mustafa is and what it is made to look like. Don’t miss clicking the link in that comment as well for further knowledge.
I would be deleting some of the irrelevant comments, please get in touch with me on the email ID mentioned in the side bar for any concern.
Juz A Kashmiri
To be frank with you most indians hate kashmiri muslims, mainly becuase of your cruel acts of terrorism. At the same time ,we have great sympathy for KP as they are ture patriots.We cannot give up Kashmir, it is important strategically because of the rivers. It is not for any other reason that we hang on this hellhole full of backward fundamentalist people.If you guys want azadi, you should cross the border and go to pakistan or better yet go to central asia or iran were you guys claim to come from (even though most of you were forcibly converted hindus). forget about azadi, it will never happen even for a 1000 years. Despite many insurgencies, India has never broken up. We defeated the Sikh insurgency and belive me Sikhs are far superior fighters to any Kashmiris or Muslims. Keep spilling your blood, we have 1 billion people and nukes, you can never defeat India.
Where did the hindus come to India from? Do you know that?
Aryans, Dravidians? What were you before you were hindus?
JK_PUL,
Hinduism is a way of life and that has been there for centuries. I do not wish to debate on relegion , but if I would advise you to read “rajtarngini” of Kalhan & Jonaraja and Neelmat Purana.
You may get an answer to your question ?
Pawan
Indian Guy,
Welcome. It has been my endeavor to invite opinions (howsoever diverse) at this blog without being critical of any point of view. You have presented your views which you deem are correct and I won’t be disputing that.
However, at the same time I feel that you have shown a total disregard for the history of the state. I am sure you have not made any effort to first of all acquaint yourself with the reasons of the conflict and more importantly the history of Kashmir. You are grossly unaware of the reasons of this mess we Kashmiris find ourselves in. Some fingers may be raised at India’s neighbour, but I repeat Pakistan did nothing more than the proverbial “fishing in troubled waters”. I don’t think I need to remind you of the precedent India set in 1971.
And I also am sorry to say that by categorising Kashmiri Muslims as “terrorists” and Kashmiri Pandits as “true patriots”, you are not going to solve this problem. Please refrain from discussing about religions here.
JK_PUL,
A sincere request to you once again to not indulge in a zero-sum game by trying to debate about religions. This blog is not the appropriate forum to discuss all this.
Juz A Kashmiri
Pawan,
Point well made… Let us hope we do not need to indulge in any un-healthy debate now on.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan & Juz,
I was just trying to respond to ‘indianguy’ & not indulging in religious discussion. His remarks ‘If you guys want azadi, you should cross the border and go to pakistan or better yet go to central asia or iran were you guys claim to come from (even though most of you were forcibly converted hindus)’. I am least worried about what religion the ‘indianguy’ or somebody else is following but the hatred he is trying to preach is really intolerable.
History says that Indians had migrated from central asia , so should we ask them to go back to central asia. Whether we had converted or come from middle east is not a discussion here. We had started this discussion about prevailing situation in Kashmir but are we really doing that?
JK_PUL,
thatz why i wrote…READ RAJTARANGINI… its probably the oldest history available and is our heritage.
You may have a different opinion….
Pawan
JK_PUL,
Thanks. The fact that you also appreciate that this forum is not for debating which one is a “better” religion is really welcome, and I am sure Indian Guy too would have learnt from each one of us here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Mr.Juz A Kashmiri can you elaborate when you say, “You are grossly unaware of the reasons of this mess we Kashmiris find ourselves in. Some fingers may be raised at India’s neighbour, but I repeat Pakistan did nothing more than the proverbial “fishing in troubled waters”. I don’t think I need to remind you of the precedent India set in 1971″.
I just want to know what exactly you mean to say?
P.K.Gupta
Mr. Gupta,
Welcome to the blog. Well I’d love to throw some light on the historical events which have shaped the present situation. However, I am finalising a new post for the blog which will have those events and their aftermath described in detail.
Now as far as the sentences from my comment (which you have quoted) are concerned, my intention was to let our dear friend know that the problem is Kashmir is not as simple as he thinks. I wanted to convey the fact that just because Pakistan is Kashmir’s neighbor doesn’t necessarily mean all the trouble in the valley is the making of Pakistan. The mistakes, rather blunders committed by the polity right from that fateful morning of October 1947, have contributed to our pathetic state.
Mind you, I do not want to absolve Pakistan of its share of blame. But it did to Kashmiris, albeit unsuccessfully, what India did in Bangladesh in 1971.
Hope it clarifies.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan,
Well I have not read RAJTARANGNI but I accept that it is the heritage of Kashmir.
But I cannot endorse the theory that we KMs are outsiders or after converting to Islam we have lost the right to seek our rights. Honestly, I am amazed that you have nothing to say on the comments by Indianguy!
Dear Indian Guy,
No , most of the Kashmiri Muslims are not outsiders . This is a fact. Almost all of them are converted from Hinduism .
The conversion started with the might of sword .in the times of RinChin and continued .
And let them not seek the rights , they are as much Indians as any Hindu is.
I also wish kashmiri muslims realise what it means by coming in mainstream and should demand abrogation of the special status to J&K.
That would make all of us equal !
JUZ ,may i get a draft of your new write up earlier, so that I may prepeare my argument. I am sure it would be interesting
let me make a few points :
1.kashmir is not about religion. it is a naked war of revenge by pakistan after 1971. they also know that india could literally turn punjab into a desert if it watns by blocking the rivers which oiginate frm kashmir.
2. if india wanted to do a genocide by now it could have literally swamped kashmir with hindus. but we are a genuine country and made best efforts to safeguard kashmiri culture. wha did we get in return ? terrorism
3. believe me i am no fan of the indian state and government. but i am still a great patriot of the indian nation. we have total freedom here, we can criticize the government, vote them out, abuse them, etc. That is called democracy. the indian state is corrupt everywhere and it harasses people in bombay and delhi as well. Kashmiris should embrace democracy and peaceful ways of protest.
4.even though sikhs and NE were fighting against indian army, common people did sympathize with them. Mainly becasue it was a genuine fight for rights and not terrorism sponsored by Pakis. They are now within national mainstream and have got full rights as well as are free to pratice their own religion and culture. Kashmiris have lost the sympathy of the majority in India. We hate you as much as Pakis.
5. If Kashmir becomes indpendent it will be a bigger terrorist state than even Pakistan or Afganistan.Forget India, even the world community will not tolerate it.if not our troops, US troops will be there and slaughter you like they have killed over 600,000 iraquis in only 2-3 years.
6. I have asked you a serious question about migration. If you want a Nizam mustafa or whatever, there are plenty of rich Muslim countries like Saudi, Uae or your dreamland Pakistan etc. Everone should live where they want to. You are free to go to any other country if you don’t like India.Good luck to you.
7. India has over 140 milion Muslims. Most are living peacefully with their neighbours. It’s better if Kashmiris accept max autonomy, and live peacefully with full rights in India.Its your wish, if you want to keep fighting us, we will keep fighting you.
8.I repeat, India will never give up Kashmir. No one cares if you Kashmiris live or die. india is growing rapidy, we can afford to keep trrops there whtout any pinch to us.
Indian ,
Your point 8 sums everything up. I hope for the seake of peace the disturbed elements realize it
Dear Pawan,
I am not very sure whom you’re pointing fingers at when you say “disturbed elements”. Well I will not say much on your comments but surely would like to respond to our friend Indian Guy. I will do that point by point exactly in the sequence he has raised them.
1.kashmir is not about religion. it is a naked war of revenge by pakistan after 1971.
Good finally someone has recognised that Kashmir is anything but a religious issue.
You also point that it is a naked war of “revenge”. Dictionary reveals the following meaning – To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult).. Now this simply strengthens my point of view, that Pakistan did to Kashmir what India did to Bangladesh.
So what is all the fuss about then.
2. If india wanted to do a genocide by now it could have literally swamped kashmir with hindus.
You are absolutely right about that, if India wanted, but having done that what justification would India give in international fora… like UN where the PM Nehru himself went and acknowledged that it is a disputed territory whose future would be decided by Kashmiris themselves. What happened to that promise… Some may say elections, Please do not joke.
3. ..That is called democracy. the indian state is corrupt everywhere and it harasses people in bombay and delhi as well.
I simply do not know how to comment on this, May be our dear friend Pawan is blessed with much intellect, so I will let him explain the meaning of all this. You are trying to say the there is democracy and then in the same breath criticise almost everything. I simply cannot understand what to make of it.
Regarding democratic process and participation in that, do you know about the famous elections of 1987. I am sure you are not aware.
4.even though sikhs and NE were fighting against indian army, common people did sympathize with them. Mainly becasue it was a genuine fight for rights and not terrorism sponsored by Pakis.
Till date I always thought Sikhs and North-East insurgents were supported by ISI (that is what we have been told everytime), and so this is a new thing. And in fact another FLASH for me is that common people in India supported that. This is really unbelievable.
But what really is disturbing that you believe their struggle is genuine while Kashmiris’ is not. May I know what is the yardstick?
Hate us as much as you want, but we won’t be subjugated.
5. If Kashmir becomes indpendent it will be a bigger terrorist state than even Pakistan or Afganistan
I cannot help but say you are not very clear about your own view points, Sometimes you say it is a naked revenge, then you say terrorism, then you talk about genocide and now you are relying on tagging this imbroglio to the international terrorism. May I suggest getting your facts right first and then lets discuss it.
6. I have asked you a serious question about migration. If you want a Nizam mustafa or whatever …
No one has the right to tell a Kashmiri where he should go and what he should profess. I have absolutely no hatred for India, I like my motherland and that is it. And I would always be there, whether someone likes it or not.
7. India has over 140 milion Muslims. Most are living peacefully with their neighbours
Well you have a point and its very much valid, I do not want to dispute it as I know Muslims in India are doing rather well and enjoy more religious freedom than even some of the Muslim countries. So I am not disputing that. We are only protesting (peacefully) at the harsh treatment being meted out to us by whosoever.
Peace we will lap up everytime if it is with dignity. You talk about max’ autonomy, what does that mean?
8.I repeat, India will never give up Kashmir. No one cares if you Kashmiris live or die.
You have yourself said how much importance a person like you attaches to human life, What you seem to be interested in is establishing hegemony over innocent people.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Juz ,
These are the vague thoughts of some disturbed elements. The comments clearly reveal the mindset who just know Kashmir is about ‘religion’ and ‘revenge’. Time will decide whether India will give up Kashmir or not but above comments by indianguy & acknowledged by Pawan tend to just that Kashmiris really have a genuine cause at hand.
Dear Pawan,
This is in response to your this comment
May I ask you what is the motive behind mentioning about the conversion ad-nauseaum. Because, I feel this thing has been pointed out several times till now, and if Indian Guy doesn’t know it may be he is not reading the comments at all.
I can challenge that Islam was not spread in Kashmir by the might of sword. If you are referring to sources like Rajtarangini by Kalhana and other writers may I mention that it is common knowledge that these writers have omitted the mention of mass voluntary conversions to Islam and at the same time ignored the names of even such prominent Muslim preachers as Bulbul Shah, Sayyid Hussain Simnani, Sayyid Ali Hamadani and Sheikh Noor-ud-Din Rishi whose influence totally transformed the Kashmiri society. You won’t dispute that preachers like Sayyid Ali Hamadani was not accompanied by his army. Would you?
I hope you are serious when you say “Kashmiris should demand abrogation of special status”, Which special status – Armed Forces Special Powers Act, Disturbed Areas Act – acts which give an army officer courage to ask the court to “shut-up” when the trial of killing of 4 innocent children, by army, is taking place. It simply wants to tell the court that you have no right to question us. Now, tell me what democracy are you talking about. If you are referring to Article 370, to me that is a sham when you have 0.6 million troops stationed to fight just 1800 terrorists or aatankwaadis.
Juz A Kashmiri
JUZ,
The history is as follows . Among the first muslim to come to Kashmir was Bulbul Shah , who was under persecution from his own native land and people.King Suhadev , being a true tolerant Hindu, allowed him to preach . Bul Bul Shah was also granted large land.
RinChin , after not being admitten into hindusim was later converted by Bul Bul Shah. It was Rinchin who started his campaign with the sword.
It is also a known fact that cruel killers like Sultan Sikander killed Hindus on advise of Sufi Mir Mohammad> Mir Mohammed condemned Hindus as “Kafirs”
Even haider Shah ,depsite being a drunkar & Womaniser killed millions of hindus. He chopped noses , plucked eyes and was very cruel. It was at that time that due to cruelty , many pandits had to say “Na Bhatto Aham” …meaning I am not a Hindu.
I am not interested in re-inventing the wheel , or changing the history which people back there in Kashmir are desperately doing. Changing the names of Anantnag to Islamabad, Shakracharya to Takht-eSuleiman , Hari Parvat to Koh-I-Maraan. History has to be accepted , and unfortunately the intolerance shows there in people of valley towards the history itself as well.
Lastly, I am sure I do wish 370 was not there , though even in constitution it is a temproray provision. As far as Disturb act goes, it is the people themselve who have to be blamed. They turned and supported the paradise to be turned into a battle ground. So you need to live with it…
Regarding some 0.6 Million soldiers pitched against 1800 aatankwadi, All I would say is that we have a Aatankwaadi Nation as our neighbor as well. And the numbers are needed when the enemy is in disguise and uses innocent men , women and children as a shield. So the argument on too many soldiers is futile.
JUz , whatever u think. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Kindly just dont make an excuse of peace brokers when you yourslef supported the Gun. You cant have your cake and eat it too.
Pawan,
It seems you are coming back to the square one… Gun and Who supported it… may i refresh your memory by reproducing this sentence from the original post “…if some one says now he never supported this is either lieing or he was not there at that time or else he has to be a sooth-sayer”. I think I admitted it long back so I don’t understand what is the rationale behind trying to accuse me of putting up excuses.
Peace-brokers… Who are they? and which cake are you talking about?
Yes, as far as history is concerned it is a tough task to prove you wrong, but you have to accept the fact that “History is always written by victors”, If you turn this logic upside down you will realize that one who writes always does so with a bias. If instead of Kalhana, a Kashmiri Muslim had written about the history it would have given a totally different account then. It is human tendency.
Juz A Kashmiri
Pawan,
You have given various account and I am sure some of these are from reputed sources. I would definitely like to comment on them but would need to some study as I do not want to jump the gun by arguing without knowledge.
Regarding renaming of places, well the trend still continues, how Ahmedabad becomes Ahemdabad or Amdavad and now Gandhinagar. Isn’t everyone in this nation intolerant.
You have wished Article 370 was not there, I wish you wish comes out true, coz then no one in this democratic nation will think about Kashmiris being pampered, when all that is being done is totally opposite.
Wow, how convenient for you it is to lay every blame at our door. Our children get killed it is we who are responsible, our mothers and sisters lose honour we are only to be blamed, children orphaned why blame anyone but us. Now can I ask you this, Aren’t the security forces supposed to be disciplined? If not, then how different are they from those who killed scores of Pandits.
Juz A Kashmiri
Do you have some doubts on what i wrote about History or do you want someone to re write it to appease
Pawan,
This is from one of your posts.
“Regarding Makhdoom Sahib, i do accept that I have faith in the place. So did Indira Gandhi. And I have faith in Nund Ryosh as well ( You may preffer to call SHEIKH NUR-UD-DIN ) ”
Would like to know what do you mean by it. You have faith in Makhdoom sahib, what do u mean by that? and faith in Nund Ryosh. I would like to know from you, what do you mean by that.
I would be glad to discuss Rajtarangni with you, if you really have gone through that…
Pawan,
I do not doubt the history written but I am not sure if I can expect total objectivity from anyone, be it a Kashmiri Pandit or a Kashmiri Muslim, when it comes to writing about the history of our valley. Why I say so is because the picture presented by you (on the basis of historical sources) appears so lop-sided.
You may like to read the review of a recent book Islam in Kashmir by Prof. Muhammad Ashraf Wani here
I would like to reserve my comments, till I know more on the subject.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Mr.Juz A Kashmiri
From your reading I can get that you do not have the in-depth knowledge of the history at all, because as in Kashmir you are fed on a particular mind set and there are many facts that are not told.
Well there are many unfortunate days in Oct-1947, 4th Oct being first of them, 24th being the other day. 22nd Oct when the regulars & irregulars invaded the state and loot and plunder followed in Baramullah and they reached outskirts of Srinagar by 26/10. And by this situation crystallized and Indian Army entered on 27/10. For some this may be a day of mourning but for the Non-Muslims it is a day of rejoicing because they were out of the clutches of terror. We saw what invaders did in Valley, the non-Muslims who were left behind across LOC there is none today, converted by fear to life or coercion. What happened after 1989 in Kashmir is continuation of the process left behind in 1947 by Pakistan.
Regarding your parallels between 1971 acting in India and later what you say Pakistan is doing in Kashmir, the parallel is unparallel somewhere. Pakistan tried the gun in 1947 itself and failed miserably because it thought it will be able to control the Kashmir because the supply line to valley was from its side, for they were defeated by the Kashmiri’s themselves, they reached close to Srinagar and if air-port was in their hands it was over but for the support shown by Kashmiri’s.
Deleted as the comment is ir-relevant to the discussion. For any concern, please mail us at the email ID mentioned on the side bar on right.Mr. P K Gupta,
Seems you have not read my words properly, because if you’d have you would not have commented saying “…do not have the in-depth knowledge of the history at all, because as in Kashmir you are fed on a particular mind set and there are many facts that are not told”.
Now may I repeat what I mentioned “…I would definitely like to comment on them but would need to some study as I do not want to jump the gun by arguing without knowledge.”
Regarding events of 1947, I would not like to comment at the moment as the next post is nearing completion. Once I publish it we may discuss it then. May I yet again mention that we are not here to defend actions of Pakistan or for that matter anyone else, we are here to discuss Kashmir and so please refrain from bringing in Afghanistan, Taleban and US into this discussion.
Juz A Kashmiri
Mr P K Gupta,
I simply cannot stop myself but ask you what you mean by this “For some this may be a day of mourning but for the Non-Muslims it is a day of rejoicing because they were out of the clutches of terror.”
If I remember correctly Kashmiris were under the rule (persecution) of Dogras and raiders had not reached Srinagar, so what were non-Muslims rejoicing about.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Mr. Gupta,
Didn’t India support Russia invasion of Afghanistan when thousands of innocent men, women & children were getting by Russians?
Didn’t Americans create the mujahideen?
Didn’t you guys consider America as enemy of India because USA pampered the mujahideen and of course pakistan?
JUZ ,
Are you comparing Thousand of years old written history with someone like Muhammad Ashraf Wani .
Wani in his book says that the loud recitation of Quran in mosque was not an influence of Hinduism [the way the same people recited before converting ]. As the practise is adopted by Hindus.His idea is that people followed the central Asians Zikr….
One must be silly to accept his theories …..
What Wani is doing is the systematic effort by people in Kashmir,including the Govt, to re write the history of Kashmir.
And that is a SIN.
JK_PUL,
We are again getting into a discussion which is not relevant. No one wants to discuss who Taleban were, who supported them or who ditched them. We are free to make our minds. Request you to refrain from commenting on topics which do not have any kind of link with the original post.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear indianguy & Pawan,
Regarding the point number ‘8.I repeat, India will never give up Kashmir. No one cares if you Kashmiris live or die. india is growing rapidy, we can afford to keep trrops there whtout any pinch to us’!
Well, just visit to different parts of metro cities & of course in all remote areas of India like UP, MP, Orissa, Assam, W Bengal etc , you will find hundreds of indians dying of hunger and lack of basic amenities of life. Try to think about those Indians first before you may think of eradicating KMs.
Caashurr,
Why dont you read this one up for “Nund Ryosh” : Click Here
Mr. Durani,
Brief Background of Mir Syed Ali Hamadani
Mir Saiyid Ali Hamadani (1281-1384) well known as Shah-i-Hamadan, was a Sufi belonging to the Kubraviya Silsilah. Born in 1281 at Hamadan, a town in Iran, his early education was supervised by his maternal uncle Syed Alauddin Hamadani. He joined Sheikh Mazdakani for spiritual guidance . The Sheikh directed Hamadani to contact the Ulema of other centers of learning in different parts of the world to gain more knowledge. After completing his education he joined the Kubraviya Silsilah and started preaching the message of Islam in different parts of Central Asia and India, such as Bokhara, Samarkand, Balkh and Srinagar. After his death his descendants continued his work in India at Taragarh, Junnar, Jaunpur and Jalali.
Hamadani was the author of several books and was also a poet. Two of his works are known, Zakhiratul Muluk and Muwwadatul Quraba. Zakhiratul Muluk is based on his political ideas. It is in itself significant that a Sufi should write a book on the nature of the Islamic State, the duties of rulers and the rights and obligations of the people. Hamadani laid emphasis on justice and fought against the rigidities of the caste system and prepared the people to work. The preaching Institutions (Khankas and Mosque) are situated in different countries i.e. Yarkand(China), Kunar(Afganistan), Bukara, Samarkand(Uzbekestan), Island of Philipines, Sarai Kaubchou(Russia), Iskardu(Baltistan), Ladakh(Jamia Masjid), Khanka Maula(Srinagar, Kashmir). He also introduced the different handicrafts besides teaching of Islam. As a result the handicraft industry received a fillip in Kashmir. He laid greater emphasis on earning legal livelihood and so rejected all the means available for the support of the Sufis. He earned his livelihood by cap making. This impact of Hamadani continues to be felt after six hundred years of his death.
Pawan,
Why do you always have to jump the gun? Did I mention that I consider Kalhana’s to be lesser authentic version than Mr. Wani’s.
Kalhana was no god-send and Wani is no angel either.
Just be a little patient man.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan
Our very proindian SAIFUDDIN SOZ writes here about Islam in Kashmir. I hope you will not blame him to be radical.
Its
deletedto even think of comapring Wani with Kalhana…… Kalhana wrote that thousand of years back….and that is what History meansPawan,
Just because Kalhana lived thousand of years ago doesn’t make me to trust every word he says and just because Wani is a Muslim won’t do any harm to my knowledge either.
Juz A Kashmiri
In that case even i have to become a historain to re-write something. I too would get some acceptability according to your reasons
JK_PUL,
I never said eradicating musilms. I agree the pverty has to be removed. And there are many poor people in WB , Orissa etc. But that is no reason for us not to protect J&k.
At the same time poverty of reasoning in Kashmir also needs to be removed
Dear Pawan,
About Bulbul Shah:
His name was Syed Sheriff Uddin Abdul Rehman and title Syed Bilal that owing to frequent use changed into Bulbul. Hence he came to be known as Bulbul Shah or the Bulbul-e-Kashmir.
Bulbul Shah sought allegiance to the renowned saint, Shah Nemat-Ullah Farisi Shirazi, of the Suharawardy Order who, in turn, looked to Zia Uddin-Ul-Najeeb Abdul Qahiri.
Bulbul Shah’s native town is a matter of controversy among the writers. Dr. SN Naz thinks, he was from the region of Tamkastan of the ancient Iran, some relates him to Baghdad; still others trace him from Turkistan. He reached Kashmir with his friend Mullah Ahmad. Some hold, he came to Kashmir with one thousand refugees out of the fear of the Mangols. Others believe, he entered the valley in 1324 AD. During the reign of Ranchan Shah. We think his arrival during the reign of Ranchan Shah, a Bodh ruler, is more probable. Rancher Shah was a seeker of Truth. Hinduism could not satisfy him and found the answer with Bulbul Shah. His meeting with Bulbul left a deep mark on him and he learnt the teaching of Islam from his precepts and actions. He embraced Islam under the assumed name Sadar Uddin, and along with him thousands became Muslims.
Ranchan Shah shared a greater responsibility in the propagation of Islam. He ordered for the construction of a monastery for Bulbul Shah, came to be known as the Khanqah-e-Bulbul Shah which formerly stood in the Mohalla Bulbullinko. In addition to it, he raised a mosque and several other buildings which don’t exist now and of which we read in books only.
The nobles who turned to Islam included the commander of the Kashmir forces, Ravan Chandra. He adopted Bibi Lalla, the saint, as his daughter and foretold that she would be a great saint. This proved true.
Dear Pawan,
If I accept the argument that Ranchan Shah was a cruel king, then:
1.why didn’t he convert Pandits to Budhism before he accepted Islam.
2.how come a saint like BulBul Shah (ra) changed him in one meeting only and he converted to Islam.
True that his nationality is a matter of scholarly opinions but what about Kalhana? Who was he? His identity is shrouded in mystery too.
JK_PUL,
Now i would tell you something which is lasting very recent. The mosque of Kahnkah was built on a place which was formerly a “Kaali” temple.
After that the hindus still used to pary there as late as 1990. On the outside wall a image of Kaali was worshipped.
So you would get an idea of how Islam was propogated and how forceful it was. Even the temples were not spared.
Well Pawan if you have something to share you are most welcome to say, Tagging you as historian, I am not that impatient.
Juz A Kashmiri
Well, I wont mind being tagged a historian along with someone called Wani
All the Best to you Pawan.
Let us see what you can come up with. But, I am sure you know it that it takes guts to admit things which are not easily palatable and till now not many have shown that characteristic here.
Juz A Kashmiri
what has pro Indian to do with what he writes. That reason is ridiculous. Discussion on history has little reason for me to believe in Soz.
Dear Pawan,
You intentions may be ‘protection of kashmir’ but your acknowledgement to indianguy’s comment 8 did say that ‘ Kashmiris don’t matter, Kashmir matters’. Killing of 10 millions KMs may be easy for a nation with 1 billion
deleted, 4 million army men armed with nukes & lethal weaponary ( but I am sure it is not ) but saving the lives of poor people of your own religion is more important. Afterall we are all creation of the same God and how much we argue, at the end, life of each creation matters.JUz,
Atleast we have not challenged something which is written as back as thousands of years ? look whose talking !
Atleast it has to: Soz does not agree with you that Islam in Kashmir came by force. That is a historical misunderstanding!
Pawan,
I do not understand what is this fixation with Kalhana’s Rajtarangini about. You are free to believe in every word it says. But if one of us tries to find out the truth, why should you get disturbed.
Isn’t it a surprise, that a person on whom you have shown so much of faith is himself shrouded in “strange secrecy”.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Pawan,
Atleast it has to: Soz does not agree with you that Islam in Kashmir came by force. That is a historical misunderstanding! I know you will agree with him for most of what he has written but you will find it hard t digest that Islam in Kashmir was a result of ‘Sufism’ & not ‘Compulsion’!
Dear Juz,
Kalhana has written history of ancient Kashmir (perhaps of Indus Valley Civilization) days . That time even Pakistan was actually ‘Bharat’. The Hindu word itself derives from ‘Indus’! However, the Muslims came to Kashmir only after 13th century.
JUZ ….
Now Kalhan is a mystery for you ……anything more to debate ?
Now the motives seem to be appearing ……
Dear Juz,
Kalhana has written history of ancient Kashmir (perhaps of Indus Valley Civilization) days . That time even Pakistan was actually ‘Bharat’. The Hindu word itself derives from ‘Indus’! However, the Muslims came to Kashmir only after 13th century.
Pawan,
Yes, I am . Because I sleep in afternoon quite often! just kidding!
Pawan,
I hope not believing in Kalhana is not a blasphemy.
No i won’t laugh.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz,
Not believeing in anyone is not a blasphemy , however it is good to acknowledge history. What you all are trying to do is being a part of a plan , maybe unknowinglly , to re write the history of Kashmir.
hey pawan,
You never miss a comment without humour…
“what you all are … to re write history…”
You make me laugh. Wake up…
I asked you why do u have faith in Nund Ryosh and Makhdoom saahib, and all you have to say is paste a link… Paste a link written by someone… i want to know from you, why do u have faith in Nund Ryoush and Makhdoom saahib…
I was almost forced to put my comments on the blog.The discussions around Rinchan,Kalhana and how Islam came to Kashmir prompted me to write something which otherwise I would steer clear of.
My dear friends,Islam did not come to Kashmir like it came to Iran ie thru brute force(which Firadusi in his Shah-Nama confirms).It came in the form of religious preachers who had political motives.
Having said that Muslim foriegn rulers except for Zainul-Abidin were intolerant and broke temples and burnt libraries,killed Brahmins by lacs(lacs in those days were quite some).If someone wants to know more he/she is free to contact me or read,Bahraistan-i-Shahi,Tahfatul-Ahbab,Jonararajas Rajatarangni or many other books in which Muslim scholars have glorified violence and killing of what they called Infidels,feeling great about plundering libraries,destroying every great institution.
If anyone can prove otherwise I would love to be proved wrong.As regards Sufism we had some Sufis but Nund Rishi surely was under pressure from Sultan Butshikan for fear of retribution like Mansur bin Hallaj(Please read Wazoo-i-Khoon).The real sufis came to fore under Dogra/Sikh rule and later.Shams Faqir,Samad Mir,Swoch Kral,Ahmed Batwari,Mahmud Gamee,Ahad Zargar and others shone around this time only.
As regards Islam,while I find most of my friends (since of most of my good friends are Kashmiri Muslims)are far more tolerant then what their religion teaches them to be.Mind you friends I have read translations by Yusuf Ali,Picthall,and three other great Muslim scholars and hadith i really can qoute from memory.
So friends people who r asking for independence of Kashmir are actually non-kashmiris (well most of them)to begin with.They were invaders.U wish me to name them,I will sometime.That Kashmir should be an independent nation needs no intelligence but Pan-Islamization in the garb of independence is like a wolf in lambs attire.
Regards
Rashneek Kher
Hi Rashneek,
Nice to hear your view.
Since you have read Pickthall’s translation of quran, (translation of quran in english), may i request you to post for me here the chapter Qaafiroon. Shouldn’t be difficult…
That should summarise how tolerant islam is…
mr Kher,
The refrences you have quoted are mindblowing ! But they still wud contradict you …keep watching
Rashneek,
I would first of all like to welcome you to this blog. I must admit that in some of our last comments we have digressed from the issue which forms the crux of the post under which we are commenting. This is one of the fall out of letting too many comments under one post. But for being accused of stifling people’s opinions I’d have surely stopped comments to appear against this post.
Now let me come to your comments, {Pawan Sb, Sorry to disappoint you but I am not one who likes to contradict reality} My intention was to point out the fact that Kalhana’s Rajtarangini (a treasure trove as far as our history is concerned) was after all written by a human being and he was not a god-send. If you can discount 13 pertinent questions raised by a renowned author – Arundhati Roy , why should my doubts regarding history be viewed as if I committed a sacrilege.
So may I again mention that let everyone be free to make his own mind about history, Rajtarangini, Kalhana or Muhammad Ashraf Wani; but let us not try to judge on behalf of others as well.
I hope you understood my view point now.
Juz A Kashmiri
Spme answers to you ;
1.
Good finally someone has recognised that Kashmir is anything but a religious issue.
You also point that it is a naked war of “revenge”. Dictionary reveals the following meaning – To inflict punishment in return for (injury or insult).. Now this simply strengthens my point of view, that Pakistan did to Kashmir what India did to Bangladesh.
So what is all the fuss about then.
What is all the fuss? The fuss is that there was a genocide of 3 million people in Bangladesh. .If India wipes out 3 million people from Kashmir valley, then let Pakistan come in.
2. If india wanted to do a genocide by now it could have literally swamped kashmir with hindus.
You are absolutely right about that, if India wanted, but having done that what justification would India give in international fora… like UN where the PM Nehru himself went and acknowledged that it is a disputed territory whose future would be decided by Kashmiris themselves. What happened to that promise… Some may say elections, Please do not joke.
UN is toothless and powerless, look what China did in Tibet, Pakis did in Baluchistan, demographically we can make you irrrelevant in a generation.
3. ..That is called democracy. the indian state is corrupt everywhere and it harasses people in bombay and delhi as well.
I simply do not know how to comment on this, May be our dear friend Pawan is blessed with much intellect, so I will let him explain the meaning of all this. You are trying to say the there is democracy and then in the same breath criticise almost everything. I simply cannot understand what to make of it.
Regarding democratic process and participation in that, do you know about the famous elections of 1987. I am sure you are not aware.
it shows your mindset that you believe democracy is all about supporitng the government. You are wrong my friend,Democracy is freedom to criticize, freedom of expression. Its difficult to explain to you as Islam has a has no concept of democracy. lots of groups in india are working to reform corruption in Indian governement, have you heard of RTI act. ? It is a revolution that will help get in clean governemnt in India. People in India are engaged and do not let the governemnt get away with trampling our rights.
4.even though sikhs and NE were fighting against indian army, common people did sympathize with them. Mainly becasue it was a genuine fight for rights and not terrorism sponsored by Pakis.
Till date I always thought Sikhs and North-East insurgents were supported by ISI (that is what we have been told everytime), and so this is a new thing. And in fact another FLASH for me is that common people in India supported that. This is really unbelievable.
But what really is disturbing that you believe their struggle is genuine while Kashmiris’ is not. May I know what is the yardstick?
Hate us as much as you want, but we won’t be subjugated.
Yes ISI also did come in , but the end result now is that we crushed all these insurgencies.
5. If Kashmir becomes indpendent it will be a bigger terrorist state than even Pakistan or Afganistan
I cannot help but say you are not very clear about your own view points, Sometimes you say it is a naked revenge, then you say terrorism, then you talk about genocide and now you are relying on tagging this imbroglio to the international terrorism. May I suggest getting your facts right first and then lets discuss it.
Ots well known that all major terrorist groups are active in Kashmir, what is Let, Jum, HizMuj ..I suppose they are all socio-cultural orgnziation? grwow up buddy…
6. I have asked you a serious question about migration. If you want a Nizam mustafa or whatever …
No one has the right to tell a Kashmiri where he should go and what he should profess. I have absolutely no hatred for India, I like my motherland and that is it. And I would always be there, whether someone likes it or not
So you like your motherland, then why are you crying about this that and the other…it shows that you know you will be treated worse than a dog in so called muslim arab countries.muslims never have courage of their convictions,,.
7. India has over 140 milion Muslims. Most are living peacefully with their neighbours
Well you have a point and its very much valid, I do not want to dispute it as I know Muslims in India are doing rather well and enjoy more religious freedom than even some of the Muslim countries. So I am not disputing that. We are only protesting (peacefully) at the harsh treatment being meted out to us by whosoever.
Peace we will lap up everytime if it is with dignity. You talk about max’ autonomy, what does that mean?
sir, what is your definiton of peaceful?..attacking parliament? bombing trains and buses? killing and raping 1000s of KPs?…
8.I repeat, India will never give up Kashmir. No one cares if you Kashmiris live or die.
You have yourself said how much importance a person like you attaches to human life, What you seem to be interested in is establishing hegemony over innocent people.
Do you understand global politics, geo-strategy etc. I just tried to explain to you. Its nothing persoanl against Kashmirs, Unfortuntaely for you, your location is too strategic for us to give up to any one, that you live there is incidental, I repeat no one cares about you people neihter India nor pakis..its all about the land , rivers and location…so you are dying….you have brought it upon yourself..how come kashmir was poeaceful upto 1989?…its only when you ppl strated terrorism, that India had to respond..
Indian Guy,
Let us try to stick to the point, rather the points raised by you initially and not go around beating the bush. You started from Kashmir and then spoke about Bangladesh and at the end you are talking about strategic importance of Kashmir. I wonder where do you stand in all this melee. You have not taken a consistent stand.
Repeating your quotes will un-necessarily lengthen it and so I will try to keep my response a little short and to the point.
If 3 million Bangladeshis were killed by Pakistan does it mean that India is justified to repeat the same in a place it calls as its “atoot-ang”.
What UN can and cannot do, is not the point of debate here, so please do not bring Tibet or Baluchistan into the discussion. We would rather discuss Kashmir.
You talk about democracy and RTI. I know about RTI, but do you know RTI is applicable in all the states except Kashmir – the integral part of India.
Un-necessarily you are trying to divert the topic’s focus from Kashmir to religion (read Islam and concept of democracy). Sorry to say I am not going to take the bait. You may try other forums.
I have grown up seeing terror from either side, so thanks but no thanks, I am sure you can do with some more info on Kashmir and the struggle.
You talked about killings and rapes, I do not want to quantify the damage done to Muslims to score a point for every human life lost to terrorism (of either kind) is a great tragedy. But I hope you are aware that deaths / tortures / disappearances / rapes on the other side of spectrum are colossal.
Global Politics.. ahaann..Let that be for later.
How do you say that there is nothing personal against Kashmiris when earlier you had said you do not bother about lives lost in the valley.
Get your facts right about Kashmir and lets debate only then.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Readers,
One of the contributors is repeatedly posting spam on this blog (under different names). My request to him and others is to let us try to engage in discussions rather than posting totally spam messages here.
I am sure the gentleman would have taken note of this thing.
Juz A Kashmiri
JUZ,
Being honest i thought you “were” a welcome change.But It seemed to me that in a subtle way you too were siding with those who were challenging history.
If you can challenge something accepted as a documented fact by great historains like “Stein” , I believe the challenges would never end.
And I am sure, few yers down the line people would say Pandits were never killed in Valley by militants and that is what Dr Farooq seems to be doing . Who knows tommorow you would also follow the suit.
After all , you believe , it is all about being “Human”
I must say I am disappointed
Pawan,
Its really sad to know that you are disappointed by the mere mentioning of the fact that it is worthwhile to do lot of research on the subject rather than blindly accepting everything as factual.
Stein, as far as my knowledge goes has only translated Rajtarangini. Frankly speaking I have never read Rajtarangini but it seems that I have touched a weak nerve by asking if its to be deemed as 100% accurate.
May I mention that I do not want to be goody-goody just to please all, I speak my mind, whether or not someone likes it. I felt distraught at the grenade explosion in Tahab (whosoever the grenade thrower owed allegiance to) and in the similar manner i keep on speaking of high-handedness of security personnel.
Juz A Kashmiri
I agree that Stein did translate Rajtarngini, but it was as a history….not as a fiction.
There are many things which is blasphemous to be challenged. And we should desist it.
Whether it is Suzanne Olossons claim over the “Roz Bal” or the Muree thing .She wanted the DNA to be done, which at time Dr Farooq too seemed to be OK with.
I am sure you would think something different in this case
Juz,
I am OK with discussions on anything , but i hate someonce challenging history …and appreciating the devious ways to alter it.
Pawan,
It seems finally there is something you have agreed to. But I will still stick to my view point that to me challenging the one-sided view of Kalhana about Islam in Kashmir (may be he was 100% correct) is not blasphemous.
I would surely like to know what are the points on which others differ with Kalhana. By the way, if you can send me share some excerpts from Rajtarangini, it would be a pleasure. And if you have more information about Prof. Wani as well, that would be really welcome.
Juz A Kashmiri
Pawan,
I am not aware of what this affair Suzanne Olossons is about… Are you referring to something “Christ in Kashmir”, I must admit that though I do not know much details but surely I’d like to think differently than Olossons as it is a matter of my religious belief. If I ever question your beliefs you are free to raise a voice.
Juz A Kashmiri
Stein has said following about Kalhana ,”That noble-minded author is alone worthy of praise whose word, like that of a judge, keeps free from love or hatred in relating the facts of the past”
Kalhan was son of Canpaka , who was minister in the Kings cabinet. And he wrote Rajtarngini in 1148.
The discussion on Kalhana and Suzzane dragged me here. I apologize if I am missing something of the context, but let me briefly summarize Kalhana:
Kalhana wrote during the time of Jayashima, 1128. The country at that time was in a piteous state, there was misgovernment, floods, famines, epidemics and thousands of people died of starvation or were sold into slavery. Only a few among the upper class survived. These were the conditions and this is what Kalhana wrote about Jayashima:
And let us see what Kalhana writes about some of the Hindu rulers, Samkarvarman (Avantivarman’s son) rule was thus portrayed by Kalhana:
To summarize the Hindu rule in Kashmir, let me quote Jawahar Lal Nehru’s foreword to his brother-in-law’s translation of Kalhan’s River of Kings:
And let me also quote Pandi Prem Nath Bazaz:
Suzzan claims that Kashmir is mentioned in the Bible and that all religions (Buddhism,Hinduism and Islam) destroyed the remains of Christianity in Kashmir.
Thanks K,
My endeavour till now has been to not discuss anything related to Kashmir’ history under the present post; but as you’d have seen some of the last comments (including mine) have been veering towards the same.
The point which I was trying to make is that although Kalhana’s Rajtarangini is a treasure trove when it comes to knowing about our rich heritage, Is it necessary that Kalhana’s every word and every sentence has to be taken at its face value.
Hope you can enlighten with your perspective on the same.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri
True, it’s always best to stick to the post in discussion. Kalhana was not free of bias, he praised Jayashima even though Kashmir was in no better condition than that of other rulers. This is itself validates your point that we can not take Kalhan’s every word at its face value. Rajtarangni has been written in a prose form and it is very difficult for people to understand it and the translations can be questioned. Stein in no way is above our historians like G MD Sufi. G M D Sufi’s book was banned for a long time in Kashmir by the government. And we are all aware that the historians of the past (Kalahan included) have alway praised the King’s during whose era they were writing. This is even true of Walter Lawrence, who even dedicated his book to a Dogra King.
K,
I am not debating about what authenticity of what you re trying to portray. What I am trying to say is that Kalhana must be knowing much more about his contemprary time or earlier than someone called Wani .
Now, let us not discuss Prem Nath Bazaaz. His associations and political affliations are all very well known.
I am not sure if you would quote Wanchoo next ?
And lastly if you re comparing Sufi with Stein, I can understand your motives and inclinations…..
Good to see all in a group …trying to re-write “Itihaas”
BTW …Mirza Haider wrote in his ‘Tarikh-i-Rashidi’ : “The Sufis have legitimized so many heresies that they know nothing of what is wrongful …They are forever interpreting dreams, displaying miracles and obtaining from the unseen, information regarding either the future or the past. Nowhere else is such a band of heretics to be found…..
JUZ & K
G.M.D. Sufi writes in ‘Sufi 1947-8, p688’: A number of practices of Kashmiri Musalman are un- Islamic….The Buddhist worship of relics has insidiously crept into India’s Islam….The Kashmiri Muslim has transferred reverence from Hindu stones to Muslim relics…..
Now are we back to square one ?
JAK, I guess no matter what we debate, neither of us are ever going to change our minds. let me ask you a question. What in your opinion is a solution to the problem? Just tell me what you and valley Musims propose.
My stand is very clear: LOC as permanent border. separate statehood for Jammu and Ladakh. Separate Panun Kashmir for KP in the valley. rest of valley for Kashmir Muslims with full autonomy according to agreement of instrument of accession and article 370. Open border and free movement of people between valley and Pok.
Dear Pawan,
Can I ask you a simple question, Why is it that you believe any opinion which goes against your thoughts needs to be not only criticised but also the one who has made such comments needs to demeaned.
You are neither happy with Mr. Wani nor with Mr. Bazaz. Whether Kashmiri Muslims talk about Mr. Bazaz or Mr. Wani or even Mr. Gautam Navlakha, I have often seen a similar response as yours “Now, let us not discuss Prem Nath Bazaaz. His associations and political affliations are all very well known.”
Man let others have their opinion and do not criticise them the moment their voices go against your liking. To you Stein is a demi-god but Mr. Sufi or Mr. Bazaz are not worth believing.
In your latest comments, I am not sure what are you trying to emphasise – Do you want to highlight Mr. Sufi’s views or you are attempting to say that Muslims in Kashmir have some influences crept in their religion from other faiths. Either way, it doesn’t make much difference since lot of us do acknowledge that Islam in Kashmir is practised a little differently – ofcourse due to the facts mentioned. I don’t know what makes you excited at this.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Indian Guy,
You surely must be joking – on one hand you are asking for a solution and on the other hand you are proposing a tri-furcation of J&K into Jammu, Ladakh and Panun Kashmir and then you have the cheek to say that let the rest of the valley be given to Muslims. May I know what is left for Kashmiri Muslims then?
I cannot help but recall an almost funny sequence from perhaps the most famous Bollywood movie of all time… A jailor asking his sentries in his imitable style… Aadhe Idharr Jaao, Aadhe Udhar Jaao… Baaqi mere saath aao. I am sure you are smart enough to get the hint.
Man please get your facts correct before proposing such stupendous solutions.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz,
Are you propogating secession ? I feel you are hinting that nothing less is acceptable ?
Pawan,
I have nothing more to say but to request you to read my comments again.
By the way you should have raised this question with Indian Guy and not me but then you will get what you want… Panun Kashmir.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz,
Speaking rational , Kashmir Issue is not only limited to Srinagar,but to the former undivided Prncely state.
There are Jammu , Ladakh , Gujjar and Pandit aspirations . People living in valley discard it as if the rule has to be from Srinagar.
Thank you for believing that we would get what we want..ie Panun Kashmir. I hope everyone realises it…
DeletedPawan Sb,
I am sorry but I never meant that I believe you will get Panun Kashmir. I said Indian Guy’s comments are palatable to you as you will get what you want.
Hope that clarifies.
Juz A Kashmiri
I proved it through Kalhans own writing that he was biased. He wrote about people he had never seen. He wrote about Kings he had never met and since he did not have the facility of archives, as we have now today, he write what he thought. History is dynamic and open to questioning, new research. You do know that latest research and archeology shuns new light on so-called established facts.
And re-writing history? How is Kalhana more authentic than say Mr. Wani? History is never written by those who live during that era, it is written by people who pass that era.
Perhaps unwittingly, though not surprising, you have put into words one simple fact: that you are not open to debate. For you debate means parroting what you want to hear, perhaps in different versions but the baseline has to be the same. And why not? The war on terror has helped you so much already. Any opinion that even slightly goes against you and the RSS ideolgy is anti national. Why not talk about Pandit Bazaz or Wanchoo? Are they not Kashmiris? Or is it that since they chose to spoke the truth you chose to shun them as anti-nationals?
May I ask you the political affiliations of Stein, as Juz a Kashmiri rightly said why has he taken the form of a Demi-God? Why is Stein a much better historian than Alaister Lamb or Victoria Schofield? Stein just translated the text.
Might not rewrite Itihaas but will surely shed new light on it. e.g. as you claim in your blog that the elections that Bakshi fought were the most transparent. Maybe the words of Jawahar Lal Nehru might mean rewriting what you claim:
Very true and do you realise that then PaK, Gilgit, Baltistan also get clubbed together and then Pandit, Gujar and Jammu voices become all the more small or does the Princely State mean only parts that suit you?
K,
First thing I must say is that I am debating an issue with people wearing the masks. People who dont have an identity to show. People who have dual standards.And I dont mind being very blunt. I speak my mind out.
Now coming back to the discussion , you said “The war on terror has helped you so much already. Any opinion that even slightly goes against you and the RSS ideolgy is anti national. Why not talk about Pandit Bazaz or Wanchoo? Are they not Kashmiris? Or is it that since they chose to spoke the truth you chose to shun them as anti-nationals?”
When you started the debate yesterday , i thought that It would be interesting to debate with someone who has an opinion about history. But unfortuantely I have been wronged. You have gone ahead and straight away said the same thing which those uneducated , uncivilsed , barbaric “jehadis” used to say. Where did this RSS thing come up ? You people have a fixation of Pandits view and straight away connect it with RSS. YOu probably have no knowledge of Pandits or how close the Pandits really are or were to RSS. Little do you know the view of RSS on the biggest aspiration of Pandits regarding their homeland !
Lastly about my views about Bazaz , I would be putting it up in detail in my blog in near future. Though he does not merit that much of my time.
Since I have crossed your Idea , you are free to brand me a “Mukhbir” as has been the precedence with people who think like you
Pawan,
I am not sure if you can equate anonymity with being dual standards. If one wants not to disclose his identity it doesn’t mean that he/she cannot be principled. I am sure that would be some food-for-thought for you.
Linking Pandits with RSS may not be the correct thing to do, but at the same time we know it very well that it is naive to think of RSS talking about sufferings of Kashmiri Muslims.
Regarding Prem Nath Bazaz, what is his fault that you cannot hear a word in his favour… Was it his fault that he chose to join National Conference in 1938 or Is it because he heard the voice of his inner conscience when he recommended reforms in legislative assembly. Now what were these reforms meant for – adequate representation to Muslims in Kashmir, A crime indeed.
It was in the same year when delegation of Kashmiri Pandit leaders met the Viceroy of India cautioning him against pan-Islamic movement. Isn’t it an irony, that seeds of communalism were sowed in 1931 and we all cry about 1989 and its aftermath.
A few more words from Mr. Bazaz may help us understanding more about this renowned humanist and his views on Islam in Kashmir. Talking about Shah Mir, he says
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz,
you have little knowledge about Politics. Bazaz did not join National Confrence, he joined Muslim Confrence.
And I am not allergic to anyone who joins NC. Even great reformist like Kashyap Bandhu had joined National Confrence and was even arrested.I am not usre if you would have heard the name of Kashyap Bandhu , if you haven’t …you ve missed a lot
I hope to tell you some intresting aspects of Bazaz in future…
Pawan,
Thanks for correcting me, Yes it was Muslim Conference earlier which was rechristened as National Conference to give the movement a secular color.
Ya I have read about Kashap Bandhu as well, he along with Mr. Bazaz did support MC that time. But I wanted to confine my discussion to Mr. Bazaz only.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear All.
The discussion is growing interesting. Seems many students of history have started debating ‘ Historians of Kashmir’ rather than ‘Kashmir’ itself. Anyhow it is all interesting.
Indianguy,
I propose you start a separate discussion on ‘Resolution of Kashmir Conflict’.
Pawan,
Please try to acknowledge the historical facts by assimilating the facts written by different historians and please donot base your opinions on some biased historian. Honestly, I never knew history (history was always boring during school days) of Kashmir so much but now I am developing so much interest in the subject.
&
Juz & K,
You guys are putting a brave & honest academic front up here. Keep it up.
I suggest that somebody puts up the facts of Kashmir history in chronological order at this site!
BR//
JK_PUL
hi
quite intersting, the whole exchange of expressions….
nice to read post and few comments,
please have a look at my blog
with love
indersalim
I have been following this post since long.I must marvel at the fact that the progression of the flow of thoughts of our Kashmiri muslim brothers here in the comments section has eeringly mirrored the transformation of Islam in Kashmir.Here I don’t mean how Islam was spread in Kashmi.Islam in kashmir in its infancy imbibed several characteristics from the original Hindu Philosophy that was the native to the valley giving rise to sufism.But over the course of time Islam in the valley has desperately sought to shed this hindu image the climax of which was the year 1990.Whatever our KM brothers say here this seperatist movement is only aimed at complete Islamisation of the valley.Being a part of a hindu majority nation though secular does not go well with this drive for complete islamisation .So whether Kms deny this or not this is the sole reason for the cry for independence.And Oh! yes thats why Kps had to be ousted.
This very reason is so brutally simple that most of the Kms out here including the author of this post are under a shock of its simplicity so are hiding behind their respective pseudonames.Though one can see an effort here and there to give a more complex feel to the case but even then the truth juts out in an uncomfortable way and finally is overwhelming all earlier confusion about the aspirations etc etc of the KMs. When people have a tendency to change the historical facts and rewrite history and even change the names of places it should very well show how desperate the urge to transform is.
Dear Vandna,
I am equally appalled at your accusation that we are trying to change history. It seems unreal that an honest effort to know more about one’s motherland is treated with such suspicion. I am not ready to believe in all that you treat as 100% correct. And for this very simple reason I would like to know more. I am sure you’ll agree with the fact that even a simple Google Search on Kashmir’s history throws a totally one-sided view of the past events with hardly anything to put the things in perspective (read unbiased towards KMs).
And if ever there is a Gautam Navlakha or a Prem Nath Bazaz being quoted here suddenly you find people questioning their intentions, political lineage and morality. Why is it that a thought or a view point which you are not comfortable with has to be criticized so heavily. I am sure you would like to answer this.
I wonder what you mean by “shock of simplicity” and how is it related to the choice of name under which I am posting these thoughts. Regarding changing of history, I am not sure if ever that can be done, Past is past and unless you can time-travel forget about making any difference – It will stay the way it was. However, what is not sacred, is the way it has been presented and you have to agree sometimes with a bias.
Juz A Kashmiri
P.S.: Whether I publish this as Yasin or Ashraf or any other name, the questions we raise will still remain. So please get over this fixation.
Dear Juz A Kashmiri,
My sincere apologies about the “pseudoname” part.I guess you are correct in pointing out the fact that the views expressed will be same even if u publish under any other name.It was just that I couldn’t help noticing that the manner in which people tend to reveal about their identity is directly proportional to the nature of the site.At another site of an apolitical nature which is on your blogroll too I observed that people had no qualms about giving their names and were even relaxed enough to discuss the spellings of their names too.You are right have to get rid of this fixation…..
About the history part you are free enough to search for the elusive other side of the coin .But if on every toss if you find the same side revealed then may be the coin has identical sides.Perhaps reminting it (If that is proper and ethical) the sides can be made different
“But if on every toss if you find the same side revealed then may be the coin has identical sides”
The coin is forged. It is that simple…
Dear x-mas,
With such conviction you have declared the coin to be forged ; you must be an expert historian.You have joined the elite club of others like you here.
As I said the coin to change has to be minted again .Please go ahead and rewrite history perhaps an abridged version can be introduced in a few madrassas in the valley.Whatever gaps have been left by Pakistanis will be filled in and a new generation of Jehadis will be spawned to create an Islamic Uthopia in the valley.
Wishing you All the best.
Dear Vandna,
I must admit that I am really amazed at your write-ups. They are generally short and crisp, Well done indeed.
However, what surprises me that a simple observation by one of the contributors lead you to issue a discourse on Islam and Jehaad. And then you have also tried to paint most of the contributors with the same brush.
Personally, I thought X-Mas merely wanted to comment on something which is very practical. There are always two sides to a coin – atleast in my wallet I am not carrying one which sports a different behaviour.
Isn’t it sad (and I cannot agree more with JK_PUL on this) that we were taught about Mauryas, Mughals, Marathas, Jats and what not as part of our history – but our tiny tots are still “shielded” from knowing more about Kashmir and its rich history. Mind you the history books are not published by a state agency but NCERT. Why keep our kids ignorant, don’t you feel there is something amiss here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Dear Vandna (& Pawan),
Few points:
1. You always come up with preconceived indeas against Islam & Jihad. Your comments clearly reveal the lack of depth of knowledge that you have on the subjects.
2. Your comment that Islamic ‘Sufism’ in Kashmir was adopted from Hinduism is grossly incorrect. If you have read Islamic concepts in depth, the history of Islami sufism dates back to Adam & Eve itself. Islam is being practiced by majorities in almost 60 countries of the world and it has definitely taken shape in slightly different shades of civilizations but the concept of ‘Taqwa’ (supreme control on senses & development of relationship to one’s God) is the basic tenet of Islam everywhere. I don’t know how you arrived at this conclusion when there are plenty of examples of islamic sufis(WALI’s) across the whole world. Anyhow Islam is the not point of discussion here; better to keep it short.
3. As raised by JAK, in school days , our syllabuses never taught us anything about the history of Kashmir between 12th Century to 1947 for reasons know to the NCERT policy makers only. Perhaps our historical education policy makes suffer from ’selective amnesia’.
4. Even all commentators on Kashmir history have shown that their ‘clock gets stuck at 12th century’. They forget to mention about the condition of the valley under rulers from 12th century onwards. During this period, Kashmir had witnessed Muslim Rule, Mughal Rule, English Rule, Sikh Rule & then Indian Rule. Additionally, why don’t we write about the positives, negatives, achievements and deficiencies of each government.
I will be away from net for next few weeks and I hope my other KM friends will keep the discussion going on.
Thanks All,
JK_PUL
Dear JAZ,
When I mentioned that ‘ History was boring’ , you should have concluded that I never read history. How should I have known then whether Kashmir history was completly taught in the schools or selectively! I just realized that.
Dear Vandna,
How many madrassas are present in Kashmir ? Do you know that?
And what is being taught at RSS shakhas in whole India? Any comments on that?
Dear JAK,
I humbly acknowledge my dearth of knowledege about Islam .Perhaps I should not have used strong words like Jihad etc.You have been gracious enough to throw light on the origin of sufism in Kashmir. As in your wallet every coin has two sides so we will assume that the sufism called kashmiriyat in kashmir has had absolutely no influence from sages like Lalleded.This concept has travelled all the way from places like Iran and Kashmiris should be grateful to these countries for enriching the valley with these noble thoughts.
Now I deem it right to rephrase my earlier comment to “The present turmoil in Kashmir is nothing but the metamorphosis of the soft ,subtle and tolerant Islam to a hardline avatar intolerant of other faiths”
Please note that in no way am I being derogatory to Islam .I have never read Holy Quran neither am I an expert of Islamic studies .Incidently I belong to that unfortunate community which has borne the burnt of this change.That is my only claim to this statement
Dear jk_pul,
Kindly open page no 8 “The times of India” dated 21/12/06.The address and name of atleast one madrassa in kashmir (sopre ) has been published.
Like every muslim is irked when branded as a maddrass student similarly every Hindu is not a member of an RSS shakha.Lets face it no one likes hardliners.
In your view how many Madarasas are there in Kashmir and how many Kashmiris do you think are enrolled in the madrasas? I would really want to know your thoughts on how many Kashmiris are madrasah read and what do you mean by a madrasah. In Kashmir a madrasah is a place (most of the times just a room in a mosque) where the kids of a Mohalla go to learn reciting the Holy Quran and that’s it. But you would want the world to believe that the kids get indoctrinated and thus become a threat to the global peace. Right? How convenient is that.
What does Sufism mean? Does it mean Muslims are less violent? Or does it mean the kind of Islam acceptable to you? Tell me something more about Kashmiryat. e.g. Who coined this term? Why? And before this term was coined did the so-called Kashmiryat not exist? See I am again trying to re-write history! I should be hanged to death for using the prefix so-called for Kashmiryat! Right? It is after all what history is, it is after all what you would want me to believe in even though you, most probably, do not have the faintest idea about what it stands for. I have been amused by this oft repeated and oft used vague term Kashmiryat. Did I just commit blasphemy in your view. Kashmiryat at one time was nothing more than the word ‘healing touch’ is now a days. Maybe in future ‘healing touch’ would be a sacred word by which people swear.
Did the change come all of a sudden in 1990? Do an entire people change over night? I do not say that you were not wronged but putting the blame on Muslims and their ‘change’ might be convenient since the entire world is doing that but thats not a way forward and never will be. We both will remain stuck in the pits we dug ourselves and you will ask to be proud of my past, my history and I will keep on asking: do you mean the history your community wrote, you subscribe to or do you mean the history I want to believe in.
Dear K,
Kudos to you for finally turning this very post topsy turvy.As I remarked earlier the transformation is similar and as you will notice in the present case too very gradual.The spirit behind writing this post has silently been eroded away.
I do know the laymans definition of a madrassa.I have seen these instutions working firsthand in the friendly neighbourhood mosque which was blaring away its effects from the loudspeaker on that fateful night of 19th jan 1990
From your statement I gather that sufism or Kashmiriyat no longer exists in the valley (I agree whole heartedly to that) acrtually you seem to be a vehement opposer to this concept.Anyways its dead now no point in discussing it
From your arguments it looks like that Kps are behind all things gone bad in the valley.They are history’s favourite child infact its they who have corrupted the history .So good thing God is punishing them for these gross misdeeds.
Nothing left to say …time to bid Adieu to this post
Vandna,
I am not sure why a conflicting opinion by a contributor should make you feel that the post has been turned (I’ll use your words only) Topsy-turvy. And your observation that there is eerie similarity between the transformation of Islam (in Kashmir) and opinions on this post, is not entirely correct.
I am sure you’d have noticed that some contributors did try to their level best to make this post transform into an Us V/s We battle. I have tried really hard not to be provoked at their somewhat disparaging remarks .I never treated their remarks to be from the entire community (they represent) but just an individual’s own thoughts. And I do respect everyone’s opinion however divergent it may be to my own conviction.
Though I wanted to avoid talking on transformation of Islam (in Kashmir) let me mention that it was something not entirely un-expected. It was certainly not the puritanical way of living that Muslims should practice and any change brought about therein is simply in-sync with the Islamic way. Any transformation which resulted in the sufferings of a community simply is unwelcome and not based on the tenets of Islam; it is a man-made disaster and I am sure we cannot blame Islam for that. If someone commits a crime in the garb of religion (be it displacement of a community or a pogrom staged with the tacit support of the state government) that is definitely the most heinous deed of all.
Need I say more.
Juz A Kashmiri
JK_PUL,
Thanx for reminding me that my facts are based on historians who have been biased. I am sure you would like to call Pt Kalhana as biased because he was a non muslim.
But Alals ! the time Pt Kalhana wrote history, The sword carrying relegious fanatics had not appeared in the valley of Kashmir to carry the forced conversions.So I can understand you not believeing Pt Kalhan.
You have summed up well by complementing JUZ & K ….. i dont need to write the reasons why you chose to !
The best thing is the way you try to act and mostly manage to get away with it ? No wonder even talentless Qazi Taqueer got Fame Gurukal award for best singer.
Just as JAK ends ,”Need I say more?”
Dear Pawan,
Please don’t bring Qazi Touqeer into this discussion. What he is and what he is not, I am not sure many of us are interested.
Juz A Kashmiri
P.S.: I am sure like FG you are also following other reality shows, No I won’t comment on the winners of such contests.
K,
Kashmiriat is not a healing touch , but it is a false propogation of secularism in Kashmir. A secularism which never existed. The fanaticism may have varied from time to time.
Was Kashmiriat existing before the Klashnikov came.
Yes it was and it continues to exist as Kashmiriat has nothing to do with secularism. Kashmiriat meant terrorising Pandits which happened before and is happening now.It was existing 800 years ago as well.
Its only that previously people were on horseback and now they wear jeans and fly planes.
Their objectivity of Kashmiriat remains the same . And now they come up with keys and pens to alter the history.
Do you need more definition of Kashmiriat ? Or is it enough for now ?
JUZ ,
i was waiting for your new post ? This anyway got good TRP !
Eid Mubarak to you all. May we have Peace everywhere and may the good sense prevail. Hope i would travel from Panun Kashmir to wish you Eid in future.
Dear Pawan,
Why on earth should I try to prove Kalhana as biased or unbiased?
You have got a fixation about the approval and adoption of Islam by the kashmiris. You trust Kalhan just because he was a hindu although a careful analysis of his accounts of the islam’s introduction and later conversions in kashmir suffer from many flaws. You are not ready to accept any other historian who writes with a different view from yours.
Vandna,
I respect your admission that you don’t have a good knowledge of Jihad or Islam but how do you comment on Islam, Jihad and Madrassas then. You mentioned about a Madrassa in Baramula, I know it is there, we have small maktabs or madrassas in every mohalla in Kashmir. We learn the Arabic and the Koran at such places because Arabic is not being taught in schools. We are proud of them. Our madrassas donot teach terrorism, politics, propoganda, arms training etc. They merely focus on teaching the basic tenets of Islam and the Koran which is mandatory for all Muslims and which no man can ever stop. Without having any knowledge of these madrassas , how did you comment on them? Isn’t it illogcal.
Kashmir suffered because of politics which you don’t like to accept. You have been pre-programmed to think everything against Islam although none of us had written against Hinduism or any other religion. Who is communal then?
JK_PUL,
Well , you may say we are communal . Atelast you hinted at that . And what do you have to say about who made us think like that.
Hindus have been killed and massacred in Kashmir since last 800 years. Please name one muslim who has been killed by a Hindu.
You will get an answer of who is communal.
Atleast you commit that ‘your thoughts are based on communal idealogy’ whatever the reasons behind them. You are quoting the history of Islam in Kashmir as an excuse for that. As a historian you must have a clearer knowledge of the socio-economic polity of the medieval times and the comparison should give you a clearer answer. You should look at the contemporary rulers of those times and the social conditions of that time before raising fingers on a particular religion, nature or regime. The fact is that your view is narrowly based on some biased historian and in no way does it entitle you to ‘communalise’ your thoughts.
Can you debate on what you have written. Give me an example and let me give you a reply. You can not change history by brute force of being in majority or with Ak47
Hey…where have you been ?
Guys
First, it is good to see ordinary Kashmiris talk and get things off their chest. It always helps. Once the bad feelings are aired, one usually starts thinking forward and perhaps in a more positive and forgiving of the past.
Second, the question is how can this forum actually achieve anything for the future than being nothing more than a debating society??
A small suggestion : Let us create (on the forum) a small committee who come up with a simple set of proposals. These can be put in front of more and more Kashmiris (of all faiths), maybe published internationally and do away with Politicians and the power brokers..
At the end of the day, humans of whatever religious or ethnic stamp are HUMANS and can be nice to each other… It is a matter of faith and trust. Let us look forward and not backward. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO RECREATE THE BEAUTIFUL LIFE THAT WE ALL HAD IN KASHMIR>>>once.
SJAL,
I appreciate your frank admission that we had a beautiful life in Kashmir…………till the sons of soil picked up the gun.
Anyway…..i am curious where the hell the blog owner is ? Is he OK …….not heard of him from a longgggggggggggggggg lonnggggggggggg time
Hi Pawan, JK_PUL
I know you must have been wondering where I have been. I was busy with some important assignments on a personal level and then had lot of official stuff to do (For a change).
Yes, I am back and now I hope that I get back to my old ways though the inertia may not be of too much help but I think a two month’s hiatus should have left me with more energy than ever.
I would also like to welcome our new friends like SJAL, Bilhan (I hope I have not forgotten to mention too many names) to this blog. Let us ensure that we all work in a positive way to further our noble aims of bringing Kashmiris on a common ground.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz ,
Welcome back
Pawan
Pawan,
Thanks… It’s been a long time since I would have interacted here. I am sure while I was away you’d have gathered some more insight into the issue that is Kashmir and so can enlighten us here.
I always welcome contribution from anyone here even if its totally anti-thetical to my own views.
Juz A Kashmiri
Is this the end of the blog writing ?
This blog n d the issues raised out over hr cm 2 be a complete sham. No right thinking KP would ever trust a KM ever again. Look into history n we jus know it all. Kashmir as we knew will never be there again. If at all we hv 2 return it shall be on our condtions with our different localities. When the hunted cohabit with the hunter. So lets jus stop this nonsense talk of kashmiriat n kashmiri brotherhood. My own masuji who was a headmaster was killed by his own student. I ask KM to stop such nonsense blogs. U cn do whatever u like but please allow us to live in peace with our hindu brethern in mainland India. As for Jagmohan, If it hadnt been for him a race cld KPz would have been vitually non existant. People like Kak are retrayers of the KP community. We have believd your lies before never agai will it happen. The split blood of our brethren has not dried yet. So please u live in your world and let us lie in ours.
Mr. Amit,
Thanks for your feedback though it is not entirely positive. I am not here to plead anyone among either community to trust the other, it was and it will always be an individual decision so please get your ideas right about the motive here.
Your use of SMS language is fine but the words used don’t seem to lack any kind of subjectivity at all. It happens when you come with a mindset and are not willing to change it. I am really pained to know about the barbaric killing of your dear one and things like these should never have happened. But having said that, how many of us realise that while Kashmiri Pandits (after the initial killings) have finally found peace in somewhat hostile climes Muslims in Kashmir continue to be killed. Do you ever feel for those innocent children who were killed by RR just because they thought the poor chaps may be militants.
And today I read in a local newspaper about killing of two innocent civilians by RR and case of murder being registered against them. What is significant is not the fact that they would be prosecuted (I am not sure they ever would be) but that the killings of innocent civilians continues till day.
Mr Pawan,
It would be really good if we can avoid making personal comments here.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz ,
Though not sure what you mean by personal comments ……anyway …..
yes, it is unfortunate that some civilians gets killed . Its unfortunate . But i must admire the Govt for registering the case as well.
Though one does recall that for thousands of KP’s killed , thousands of files and FIRS were burnt and misplaced leading to not even a single conviction. The J&K state Govt has obviously been ruled by other face of the “Agenda” and that Agenda was “Azaadi ka Matlab Kya …la ilaha illa allah ”
Two sides of same coin….. Obviosuly no better choice for Kp’s but a Separate Homeland of Panun Kashmir with a union territory status.
Hi to everybody,
I have gone through the whole blog & it took me almost 2 hrs to go through it. Very intresting indeed
Dear Juz, jk_pul, Caheer, K,
We all KP’s do feel bad/pain that innocent lives are killed in valley, but aren’t you writing only one sided. What about lives being killed by throwing grenades, bombs, landmines, What about honor of those mother’s & sister (even though they belong to majority) who have been raped / forcibly married to millitants/ foriegn mercenaries.
Another aspect which u all have missed, which ur so called aazadi fight, has created is the effect of this arms struggle to general health of common Kashmiri. I see lot of KM family’s in Delhi & other parts of India,battling different dreaded diseases in hospitals. This arms struggle has polluted pure air of our Maej Kasheer & led to advent of almost unknown or rare diseases like asthama, heart ailments, cancer. It is not only the gun which is killing innocent people but these diseases also. Is there is no remorse for those lives? I have seen new born/ small kids of KM’s with asthama, cancer. You all will immediately tell it is also there in other parts of India also, but there is difference people in other parts of India did not have privilege of clean water & pure air (Anway it is not now in Kasheer also)
All intellect KM’s please brood about this also, you definitely would not be wanting azad Kashmir with whole generation of unhealthy citizens & we KP’s also don’t want any further pollution of our motherland. We want to come back in clean environment.
Dear Simi,
Welcome to Kasheer – blog of Kashmiris and not an exclusive domain of those who want Azaadi, merger with Pakistan or India or even UT status. After a long time I have seen a comment which is not simply directed at every thing and any thing Kashmiri Muslims are commenting about.
You have raised a point that while we are commenting about the atrocities on Kashmiris (still living in Kashmir) by those who subscribe to one opinion we haven’t spoken about innocents falling prey to the other i.e., the militants. I am sure if you would have gone through the entire blog; it is not entirely lop-sided. We have tried to call a spade a spade and criticised those who do not seem to have a heart (barring taking on Sharnarthi’s challenge of taking someone head-on which indeed I am not looking forward to for obvious reasons). We have also spoken about killings which are attributed to “unidentified”. I do not need to say who these “unidentified” are, you may like to believe that those are the ones who want azaadi yet others may say they are the ones whose motive is to damage that very “cause”.
And one most important thing, those who blindly assume that KMs want to merge with Pakistan are living in a fool’s paradise much like the ones who think UT status is a solution to the problem.
Juz A Kashmiri
P.S: How many of us are following the story of SSP Ganderbal Mr. Parihar. It is almost proven that he is the one who organised fake encounters of innocent civilians yet he gets a reprieve from the Jammu High Court who order a stay on the court case against him. Coming merely months after Chandigarh HC put a spanner in the probe against sexploitation (and recent reinstatement of Iqbal Khanday) this definitely is no CBM which every Tom, Dick and Harry on both sides of border is talking about.
Dear Juz,
Let me just quote our ‘Chief Minister’ Ghulam-e-Dilli (aka Ghulam Nabi Azad)….. recently in one press conference he said, ” We have confirmed around 500 custodial killings in last couple of years but it won’t be possible to investigate them all. So investigation will be carried out only in this case where we see some conspiracy….. and it happened in front of my government”…
Simi: I agree with you that most Kashmiris have fallen to psychological disorders …but have you any clue about the situation we have been going through in last 18 years… I know your response …. ‘KMs started it…so all is justified for perpetrators of terror & state sponsored torture & killings of our community”… You all see Kashmiri through the media lens and everybody knows how the Media works!
Dear JK_pul,
I don’t want to say who started or why started. Anyways we can not go back in past & change everything by magic wand, but we definitely can improve our future learning from our past mistakes.
What we all faced in last 18 years can not be changed, but we can strive that our generation to come do not have to repeat all this blame game.
We owe to our future generations – clean & peaceful environment, Disease free & terror free life.
Politics played on the basis of religion never successeds, whether it is Hindu politics, Christian politics, Muslim politics etc etc. Killing people has now become full time job of so many people, that they can not go back to peace as they will be jobless.
I want to share something, even though that is out of context. I work for a Korean Company, & there are so many thing I learnt. These people are hardworking to core, enjoy life to hilt, are die hard patriotics (always working on how to improve their country’s economy) & do not carry their religion on their seleeves.
In Kashmir, so much money is being wasted on purchasing bullets, grenades, damaging structures, if even half of the money which is being spent on terrorism & controlling it, is spent on development work, new industries, Kashmir would be thriving in economy & people will have a better life to live.
Juz,
We no longer live in a so called paradise ,where chants of Azadi Azadi Azadi used to screamed from mosques. That is what we now call a fools paradise . Recollect POK radio which calls itself “Radio Azad Kashmir” used to say….”Inshallah agle Jemmeh Ki Namaaz Hazratbal mein padenge Mirpur ke log”.
Lastly, struggle for Panun Kashmir with a Union territory is a peaceful struggle. People involved are not killers like the Azadi Brigade. How so much you try to ignore it , Homeland for Kashmiri Pandits would be a reality when a portion on other side of Vitasta would be declared as Union Territory with a free flow of Indian constitution….
I dont see any reason that you should be concerened with that…
Pawan
http://www.thekashmir.wordpress.com
Hi to all,
Well, I fully endorse with what Mr Anoop Kaul and Pawan Durrani has said. Why Jagmohan is blamed for mass exodus of KPs. When so many innocents were killed for no fault of theirs, would you expect the other families to stay back. I remember one of my uncle who preferred to stay back in Srinagar’s downtown area. Later, he was kidnapped by HM ultras and then brutally tortured. He was tortured to the extent that even years after his release from the clutches of the militants, he never revealed what all trauma he had gone. Would u still expect that he or other kp families after this episode should have stayed back……………..
Hi Anu
I respect your sentiments and your opinions as much as I expect everyone to have the decency to respect every opinion presented here. You have made your point and yet there would be countless others whose thoughts are not well represented here simply because they are not here.
I am sure you’d acknowledge that Kashmiri Muslims (living in valley) do not have the privilege of easy access to internet and so what happens is that we surely have well learned and opinionated individuals from our side whose views never see the light of the day (read internet blogs and similar platforms).
Now coming back to the points that you have made, let me try and reply to you without losing the balance which one needs to view things objectively.
It seems you do agree to a certain extent that Kashmiri Pandits did migrate out of valley due to the conditions – read due to the killings of innocent people by the gun. This seems to suggest that this decision was as much out of the desire to live – and live in peace – as it was out of the paranoia created by many individuals – be it from whichever side.
If that is the case, may I ask you then can you hold the entire Kashmiri Muslim community responsible for that. Conservative estimates put the number of Kashmiri Muslims killed at 50,000 but we did not migrate. We stayed put – why? Because, we knew this is our motherland come what may we are going to remain there and fight it out.
I hate to get into specifics, you spoke about your uncle. May I apologize to him for having faced the torture which was inflicted on him. But can you ask someone from Delhi to apologize to us for killing our nephew Imtiyaz – 18 years old who was “caught in cross-fire” (read killed in cold blood by CRPF in broad daylight) when all that innocent victim was carrying were his books. How dare a Kashmiri Muslim think about educating himself?
Does anyone of you have the guts to acknowledge that there are countless Imtiyazs and Mushtaqs whose stories will never be narrated by anyone? There is no one to raise a voice for them, no one to question why it happened.
Now may I ask you, what do you think Imtiyaz’s family did after that – stay in Kashmir or run away from the gun which always points at them. I am sure you know it, his family stayed back and still stays.
Juz A Kashmiri
Well, first of all congratulations on starting this debate and doing a commendable job with it. I started out to read another ‘kashmiri’blog but after spending an hour and a half and reading 137 responses and replies i find this blog of yours to be really interesting and intriguing. Well hopefully will finish reading all the comments and join you guys soon.
Kudos to you for this lively debate.
OK i have read almost half of the comments and opinions posted here. Wish i could read them all because i for one believe that we need to have an open debate about the issue. Skimming through the posts, i would say that main themes that emerge are:
1. Should the majority (KM’s) have done anything to stop the exodus of KP’s?, regardless of whether it was a conspiracy or not. The real issue here it seems is that could they have really done something about it.
2. How can KP’s return to their homeland and again be a part of kashmir?
3. Like Mr. Pawan, do advocates of panun kashmir believe that carving a union territory along the banks of vitasta is the only solution? ( or will it be a solution at all)
Obviously, there is more to this debate than what i could gather. But i do believe that these issues are at the heart of this debate. Perhaps, there are more complexities than one can comprehend. But certainly, the way forward is to identify the problem and then move towards seeking a resolution.
Let us keep the ball rolling.
Sajad
Welcome to Kasheer. It is really nice to see such kind words from your side. May I mention that when I started this blog few months back, my aim was precisely what you have felt – to start a healthy debate among Kashmiri Muslims and Kashmiri Pandits (most of whom are unfortunately not in the valley anymore).
Unfortunately, there are some people who will always have some or the other problem whenever a Kashmiri Muslim wants to call a spade a spade. Their idea of a KM is a gun-totting maniac waiting to kill. Little do they know that it is KMs only who have borne the brunt of the strife – be it in terms of loss of lives, property, livelihood.. The list is endless. And then we have others who are fed on a constant dose of anti-Kashmiri Muslim propaganda and the result is you are fighting a losing battle asking them to view things objectively.
Having said that, we shall not be discouraged by such bias against us. We have to find a way out and find it out on our own. No one is going to help us for its we who are losing, and Allah forbid, by our inaction we may suffer even more with each passing day.
Now coming to some the points raised by you, and mind you they are quite pertinent. Let me try and answer them. At the same time, I also invite our other boarders to contribute to this discussion.
Ideally we all should have done more to stop this from happening, but if you would have been in those heady days of 90s weren’t most of us fooled into thinking that having the green and white flag with a crescent flutter atop the Sectt is just around the corner. And besides it is not the question of stopping migration of KPs, did we ever raise a voice when even a KM was gunned down on the pretext of being a mukhbir . We never raised a voice even on the blatant violations of basic individual freedom, be it the ridiculous ban on driving of vehicles. Yes, we did make mistakes and not stopping the migration was not the only one. We should have done more.
I am not sure if I am qualified enough to reply to this query. However, I do feel its not going to be easy for multiple reasons. First of all after nearly two decades, a substantial majority of them have already set up their new abode in Jammu, Delhi and few other places in India while few others managed to move out of the shores of country to earn their livelihood abroad. Ideally they would have loved to come back, but they cannot suddenly leave everything behind and again go back through the circuitous route of having to rebuild it yet again. But, we as KMs will have to do more than just issuing statements in local newspapers that we would welcome them and blah blah blah. Our actions have to speak louder than words.
I’ll leave this for our dear friend Pawan Durani to answer. Over to you Pawan.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz-A-Kashmiri
Thanks for welcoming me aboard. I personally feel that this issue is really close to my heart and in retrospect i am trying to understand what really caused this rift between the two communites, traditionally seen as torch-bearers of secularism and religious tolerance pre ‘tehreek’. You have said that yes as a majority we could have done more… but given the situation then it was almost impossible. Having admitted that ‘WE COULD HAVE” takes a lot of courage and i really welcome that…….Again you make great point that we really are facing the brunt of this senseless voilence and still are labelled as the perpetrators. YOU are absolutely right this is point that we have to atleast try, to the best of our abilities to put this point across.
Good Luck and keep up the good work
Let me start by Saying a Kashmiri Proverb:-
Aa’ nem Soey, Va’ Vem Soey, La jim Soey Pan See…
As you shall Sow, So shall you reap….
Guys if we have to discuss this let me Quote here Nehrus Interview…
Details Ir-relevant to the postMr Nehru was desperate for an excuse to avoid a plebiscite because he was intense and emotional about holding Kashmir for India, and found his rationale in the US-Pakistan nexus. He was grasping at straws, but he was a Kashmiri Brahmin and can hardly be blamed, as a committed, passionate individual, whose family had for centuries been prominent in the Valley, for doing his utmost to try to hold on to the region to which he was so attached.
But his feelings on Kashmir were entirely personal and parochial, and you can’t make international policy from the parish pump.
Let us be realistic about the US reason for providing arms to Pakistan in the Fifties and later : Washington wanted allies against the Soviet Union. If India had decided to align itself with the US instead of the USSR, Washington would have acted in like fashion regarding New Delhi. But it is stretching credibility to claim that the US-Pakistan link was the real reason for Mr Nehru’s visceral rejection of the plebiscite.
The truly ironic aspect of the whole affair is that in 1962, when India had its back to the wall and was reeling from attacks by China it not only begged the US, Canada and the UK for weapons, but actually permitted foreign combat aircraft to operate from Indian soil. Not much principle there, alas – and although Mr Nehru contended that the Kashmir plebiscite was ditched because the US provided military assistance to Pakistan, it seems that the Kashmir problem was not altered in any way by India’s grateful acceptance of enormous quantities of American weapons.
Further Addition to this… Nehru was a kashmiri Brahmin and he ditched his own people…
Earth is round what goes round come round…
Now it is your time to take it.Since kashmiri muslims are tasting it right from Maharaja’s rule…
I hope you are happy in other parts of India and you better be there as your safety is gauranteed…….
Qaisar,
Welcome to Kasheer.
I must commend you for the amount of research you have done on the subject. At the same time, in order to ensure that we do not end up making this blog – its yours too – a site where people just put up the matter without giving their own thoughts.
You have put up a few words in Kashmiri – which not everyone here may understand. So what happens is that the essence of your comment is lost on those who are not well versed in this language. I really find it surprising that you think that people who are outside the Kashmir are better off than those who fight it out in the valley and at the same time you have made some very strange assumptions. Mind you, some of us might be away from Kashmir due to different reasons – but we care for Kashmir as much as anyone in this world. And those Kashmiri Muslims who are either in Delhi or other part of the country and are always under an eye of suspicion will tell you how much safe it really is.
I would once again like to request all boarders to share their own thoughts and not reproduce an entire article from the WWW. If you would like us to visit any piece on the internet, please publish the link so that we can read the stuff directly without you having to go through the trouble..
Juz A Kashmiri
Hi Everybody
I hope that everybody that reads this blog knows about the latest controversy ( by the time some of you read this, it might be history). Yes i am talking about the call given by Mr. Geelani and hard to believe, the bar association to all non-state subjects to leave valley. For those of you who do not follow the current events in Kashmir. A girl was raped in a village and the two non-state subjects were among the culprits. As always, in him attempt to hog the limelight following the protests by the people, Mr Geelani decreed that all non-state subjects should leave the valley. Surprisingly the decree was supported by the J&K bar association. Unfortunately the media does not even seem to be remotely interested in this story.
Here is my beef with this collective punishment theory. If we drive these “non-state subject” out of valley. Should n’t we kashmiris living and working in other parts of India start packing as well?
UPDATE:
Hizbul Mujahideen today gave the ultimatum to the “non-state subjects” to leave valley.
I wonder whether people share this sentiment that non-kashmiri’s should leave……..?????
So who will be next? Any guesses???????
Sajad,
Thanks for regularly participating in this discussion, although the subject of this post and your views may not be in complete harmony.
Having said that, I’d like to mention that we should not be compare the large scale immigration (or whatever word you may like to refer it by) of unskilled labour to the valley with the employment of Kashmiris (generally high-skilled) outside Kashmir. There are many reasons for holding this belief but I would like to quote a few:
1. Kashmiris employed in any of the corporates be it IT, BPOs or even banks outside of valley contribute to the national GDP by way of taxes. So, if I am gainfully employed in Mumbai not only do I pay my annual taxes as required, I also pay other taxes like Professional tax every month. This tax goes towards development of the city that I earn my bread and butter from. Can anyone of us draw a parallel here – Does the unskilled labour contribute to economy of Kashmir besides buying bread and butter there?
2. The large scale influx of non-locals to Kashmiris besides giving rise to some unwelcome social issues can also deal a body blow (if it hasn’t already) to the locals who are involved in similar profession – masons, carpenters, barbers. Agreed the services come at a discount, but can we sustain the long term impact – I am not very sure. I would say this is some kind of a dumping being forced on us, thereby ensuring the locals themselves are forced out of the profession.
3. What happens if suddenly this long line of supply (non-local labour) starts dwindling, how are we supposed to cope up with the demand then? We have always been dependent on outside Kashmir for many of the things, this will simply add to our woes.
4. How many of the non-state subjects would be paying their electricity bills, water taxes, road tax. I doubt if they do – and even if they do pay electricity bills (assuming the landlord doesn’t resort to widespread illegal tapping of electricity so much prevalent) it would be a pittance compared to what those outside the state have to shell out.
5. Most of the Kashmiris who earn their livelihood outside spent a good percentage of their income outside the valley – be it mobile bills, travel, recreation, entertainment since they invariably stay at the same place. Thus, again there is an inflow of capital into the same economy where I earn it from. What does non-skilled labour from rest of India does in Kashmir, Earn and then save enough money and pump it back into their local markets- a massive outflow of capital from Kashmiri economy.
I may not be a supporter of Quit-Kashmir, but I do not believe in the fact that we can compare the scenario.
May my Kashmir always remain for Kashmiris.
Juz A Kashmiri
Juz A Kashmiri
Thanks for the reply, Well the subject of this blog and my comments about the recent events (quit kashmir) might not be in harmony they are very important, i believe nonetheless. An open debate about such an issue is vital for the survival of our society as a civil and progressive society. You make some good points but seriously, in the absence of any statistical data they just remain “assumptions” Talking about taxes that Kashmiri’s working outside kashmir pay, well if you are a part of that system you do like wise. If every colleague of yours pays state or city taxes so do you. Now how many kashmiri labourers or masons or barbers pay taxes in Kashmir?????
By paying taxes kashmiris do contribute to the national GDP but look at the subsidies we get……….. even our rice and flour is subsidized.
Skilled and unskilled labour; i would say it is simply a matter of demand and supply. I disagree with your assumption that all kashmiris that work outside the valley are white collar professionals. Wait till November-December and then walk the Old Delhi streets, or Kolkatta for that matter.
We live in a fast globalizing world where labour like capital is bound to transcend territorial boundaries. This is a global phenomena and is taking place in almost every part of the world whether people like it or not. Taking a protectionst approach is only going to help anyone. Now i am of the view that some regulations should be in place but i think what is alarming is that none of the arguments you have made were used by the so called “leaders” who issued this edict. It was simply done in retaliation as a collective punishment for the deeds of a few miscreants. I bet the so called leaders did not even think about the repercussions, as always it was a matter of making to the headlines of the next days papers. The bar association supported the call, which is truly ironic coz i believe bar association is comprised of lawyers ( i hope it still is in Kashmir). Now coming back to the subject of your blog, dont you wish we had these tools (the web, blogs this info) back then when a community was getting the same mixed messages to vacate………….makes me wonder if things would have turned out differently.
Juz ,
havent been folloing Kasheer for a while….. I wud pick up the thread sometimes in future…
http://www.thekashmir.wordpress.com
Salaaam teh namaskaar,
well, i tried to read all the contributions on this blog, some were harsh and some moderate and could see that the discussion was turning really hot gradually. dont you think that its time to bury our past hatchets, its time to be human, people are killed everywhere, there are attrocities done to people more than what happened to kashmiris(either hindus or muslim), all across the world, people are witnessing the worst. by the dn of the day we are all humans and should respect each other.
history wistenned it that there are thousands of stories surrounding the migartion of pandits. pandits deliver one story and muslim have another lullaby to hym.
so its time to unite and be like the ones we were like… everyone in a commmunity or in a society are never same, some may be moderate and some extremists and the tales of agony continues ……
let bygones be bygones … nothing can be achieved by bringing back the past.. past is past and its time reconcile and accept each other as a part of one comunity…. lets be happy for who we are and not for what we did to each other… this turmoil in kashmir has overshadowed the love and friendship that existed between pandits and muslims over generations….
lets talk to each other rather than talking at each other.. lets embrace the truth that we need each other… life is too short.. lets start a new beginning and lets all start a new KASHMIR….
sheikh
WELL,I HAVE BEEN READINGTHE DISCUSSINS ON THE BLOG.
the problem in kashmir is islamic terrorism.
the problem is past conquest of kashmir by invaders;
as such kashmiri muslim has forgotten his ancestry.
and what is more shocking is god was used by invaders to subgugate kashmiris.isnt it one of the greatest tragdies of the world thatpeople have forgotten their own histories and adopted foreign history as their own.shah hamdan was expelled by taimur and sheltered by kashmirisand he makes a slave of them by naming them as gulamnabi and gulam mohd and other nonsense stuff.it isa classic case of impearlism. isincerely feel that islam is the religon of arabs and we respect their religon.the religon of kashmiris is naga
pishacha;buddist;and pagan religon.where has islam place in the ethos of kashmir.
Kashmiri pandits have been a part and parcel of Kashmir since Civilisation came into existence in Kashmir.Kashmiri pandits were targeted only because of our religion by the terrorists who were nurturered and trained by Pakistan.It is very unfortunate that sufism is gradually becoming less popular among the younger generation of Muslims everywhere around globe and instead younger generation is inclined towards wahabi philosophy which is beleived to be base for all the present Islamic terrorist activities and organisations.
Lot has been said about Kashmiriyat by so called intelluctuals of Kashmir. Kashmiriyat or secularism was mainly because of Kashmiri pundits.Kashmiriyat is as old as civilization of kashmir and kashmiri hindus were very tolerant about other religions with an open mind towards other religions and philosophies.Kashmiriyat lost its face with coming of Islam in valley.Had Islam been secular,K.P’s would’nt have been uprooted from their birthplace.
Coming to panun kashmir,I think it is a very practical solution, because not only will it revive the true kashmiriyat,It will also protect and conserve kashmiri pundits culture,identity and religion.
I have read a few comments and the blog that was written here. I must say that i feel compelled to say a few things…
Whatever happened in the valley during the start of militancy is something that no one will forget – kashmiri pandits for they were killed and worse for they were made to leave. Kashmiri muslims for they lost virtually everything and worse for the fact that every day brings a new death to some family somewhere…
Many kashmiri’s on either side of the religious divide are settled now. They would not care for what happenes in Kashmir as it does not really decide the current or future steps in their lives. Therefore, for such people to comment on who was right and who suffered more, azadi, homeland etc etc is more cosmetic in nature than anything else.
Ask a kashmiri pandit, who is living in a torn ten in Jammu with temp going upto 45 degrees – he will jump to go back to Kashmir as long as it is pre 1987 Kashmir.
Ask a Kashmiri Muslim who just lost a son, brother, father, daughter,… to either militancy or got caught in a gun batter, grenade attack, extra judicial killing etc etc… He will want to switch back in time…
All the pain and anguish, i am sure will go away for people who continue to suffer if they get to live in pre 1987 ka kashmir…
For people who are already settled or for people who were responsible for militancy and other related issues, they will keep on sharing extreme to moderate views depending on what suits them at that point in time. We need to change and see what will bring relief to people who are sufferening as we discuss in this blog … Once things settle down, all of us who are being critical will have a different tone… This is natural and i really dont thing we can blame anyone …
I wish for peace to return in Kashmir.
Cheers
The problem shown is Kashmir is that Muslims cannot tolerate any other religious minorities. The sad things is that the Pandits were in Kashmir even before there was such a thing as Islam and now they had to leave their home because of Pakistani sponsored terrorism. Tell me when did Kashmir contribute anything to civilization? Only when it was predominantly Hindu and Buddhist. I doubt that place will produce anything worthy of great culure now that the Pandits are out. Joining the Pakistanis it wll be as backward as Azad Kashmir without the Indian government pumping money to appease muslims.
Not Kashmiri Pandit but very sympathetic to them–these people are absolutely great they resisted being converted to Islam and kept up their native culture and did not convert to some Arab import– Indians should just kick out the Muslims in general back to Saudi Arabia for this noxious intolerant will cause trouble for them as it causes trouble for everyone around the world–the world already having seen their malice would support the Indians in this–if the Muslims do not like it there–then they ought to move to their lovely democratic Pakistan. from what I have seen HIndus and Buddhists have to tolerate Muslims but Muslims do not tolerate anyone–look at what the Muslims did to the Pandits— Even the Bristish were complaining that Pakistanis are flooding Britain with retarded children because Mulsims marry their cousins!!! It was in the Guardian if you do not believe me. So as long as Mulsims do not respect other peoples–which is the case for all Muslim countries–they cannot expect the world to like or be sympathetic to them.
Larissa,
This is very good that you are not a kashmiri pandit but have something inside your heart for the people of kashmir as the battle of jkashmir is not only the battle of kashmiri pandits its the battle of whole hindus & people who love peace as the spreading of violence and killing of innocent people started from kashmir few people are killing innocents in the name of war of independence .This cannot be cosidered as the war of Independence wher the people are forced to live of frefugee in their own .
i happened to hit upon this blog today. i am being very honest , i have just read a few comments and got bored.
guys , after all these years i think we have matured enough to understand hindus will always support india and muslims pakistan. that is the long and short of it. let us learn to keep things simple.
i was there when the loudspeakers were blaring jehad jargon in 1990 so i have first hand experience!
will hindus forget kashmir ? do not think so. but should they be emotional about it? dont think so. after all, sky is the limit for a community that has always risen from the ashes like the phoenix! rest is irrelevant! maybe kashmir did not deserve you. she has always been unlucky – you know!
i visited srinagar some time ago, i felt i was walking through a garbage bin. dal looked like a marsh . god bless her so called true sons – they surely know how to take care of her!
wheels of karmic justice grind slow but they grind very fine. it does not take a genius to know that.
I hit this blog today, your earlier comments and writings had some direction & thought. Over a period of time it is loosing the thought behind it and the blog is drifting into usual hindu muslim rhetoric.
Hi, I am from the newer generation of KPs who at the time of leaving their native place where not even grown up enough to understand what was going on….or wat was going 2 happen next…Kashmiri Pandits, who lost their everything to save their lives at a point of time….when everything seemed to have been going wrong……for them.When we left kashmir….i have blurred memories of it….the only concern of my family was their safety….it has been almost 18 yrs now…that i am livin away from the place of my birth and that too not out of my will but because of helplessness.But the only ques that comes to my mind is Wat next?thats the main motive of this blog also i guess.and a sudden lightening in my mind gives me an answer, thats NOTHING….its high time we accept this fact that….nothing can be done…the future of kashmir is dark and bleak,and no one can change this truth…this is the darker but the true side of the situation.Nothing is going to change in kashmir….and thats because no one has the will or is really interested to do something.Local people have supported the millitants which is an admitted fact,else it would not have been possible for this terror to flourish.This shows the weak minds of the muslims of kashmir,and the attitude they have towards the KPs.The KMs in kashmir are suffering because they themselves started all this,”AAG MAIN GHEE DAALTE DAALTE APNE HI HAATH JAL GAYE”.This was something that was bound to happen. It actually hurts to see kashmir bleed every now and then….and its difficult to figure out wat went wrong…as far as the government of india is concerned it is treating kashmir as a tumor which will be kept simmering and paining as long as it doesnot spread.
To know more about the circumstances which forced (or influenced) the Pandits to migrate, please click on this link
Blog-admin may or may not subscribe to all the views expressed in the above link.
Kashmiris, and i refrain here from calling them muslims, but just kashmiri because muslim has political idiom,that pandits were driven out by jagmohan.This is as absurd as it gets.Had i been forced by Jagmohan , i would be twice angry. Tell me if muslim slap a muslim can he be less angry . Will he prefer to keep silent on it. It s surprising that kashmiris believe the theory en masse. It once again shows that they do not use their intelligence. More they are credulous and will suffer no pangs if proved otherwise.In other words,it will not pinch them . I expect kashmiris to be better educated.But it also shows how much kashmiri is prepared to throw truth to the winds.
Good work guy!
I am a Kashmiri Pandit and i was in 4th grade when we were forced to leave Kashmir.We were one of the few kashmiri families in a Muslim dominated area in Sopore.I still remember hundreds of muslims gathered outside our house shouting pro-pakistani slogans, threatening us to leave the valley.We left in the midnight and never returned and our house was burnt within few days after that.
I also remember the announcements in the mosques, hoisting of pakistani flags when pakistan used to win the cricket match.
Please get the facts first, Muslims forced us to leave not Jagmohan
During migrations our elders had to face a lot, many people died of heat stroke in the tents, loss of jobs, we lost our culture, our identity.
Whatever is happening in Kashmir today is the result of that and i don’t even feel sorry.
I believe that “kashmiriyat” that kashmiri muslims talk about died when Kashmiri pandits were forced out of their homeland.
If you guys did not stand by your fellow kashmiris when they most needed you then how can you imagine that the world will stand by you.
I have kashmiri pandit family friends and i remember seeing tears in my aunty’s eyes when she used to talk about her home in kashmir and i think “kashmiriyat” was alive right there in front of my eyes.
Well,i am Kashmiri and i am freedom loving person . I believe those who converted Kashmiris were communal.Now it has been shown identity crisis of kashmiris reflect in their mind set where they believe that they are not part of Indian subcontinent . It has once again focussed on past conquest of Kashmir by Islamic invaders.Kashmiri pandits have been so inward looking that they ignored the nostalgia kashmiri converts shared.Now they are angry therfore it is time to rescue converted muslims and make them comfortable with their past because it is what they desire unconciously.And that does not mean they should be converted but they should be made comfortable with their past generations who were Hindus. In the cover of religion, Kashmiris were uprooted from their customs And now they claim they converted coutsey their foregin origin historians like Ishaq Khan because their religion was more humanistic.That is a joke.
Replies to some of the comments:
@mharaj
You are partly right but if you again analyse the comments you will see that it is the participation from the Muslims side which is the problem. So you don’t see discussion but finger pointing from the Pandit brethren. It’s not ideal to answer each and every comment from all Kashmiris – not that I cannot answer but it defeats the purpose. The purpose of this blog is to promote an understanding between the two communities who have suffered equally in the one way or other.
@neelu
We all are aware of the hardships and the mental trauma countless people like you have faced and for some hardships still continue. And I am sure you too would concur that Kashmiri Muslims have suffered in the harshest possible manner as well. Let us move from our rigid stands, acknowledge the pain we all have endured and move ahead to mitigate those sufferings. As long as Pandits keep on saying .. Kadikh ho and Muslims shout Maarikh ho things will never get better.
@bilhan
May I mention that you would do each of us a favour if you try to stick to the subject of the post rather than needless and at times obnoxious comments on Islam. May I remind the topic of the discussion is significance of people like you, neelu, aastha and rest in the resolution of Kashmir dispute.
Juz A Kashmiri
hahahhaa
Mr Juz A Kashmiri ,there can be no solution to kashmir without studying foreign religion at the root of conflict in kashmir.I realize these foreign settled people like Geelani , jeelani and khans have a right on kashmir and they are entitled to even their dose of fanaticism, but what about Kashmiri converts , their history has been changed by Muslim conquest and now they do not know as per Naiupal whom to root for. It is immense philosophical question .How kashmiris have been uprooted from their customs and now they think it is natural for them to support everything about Arabs. Answer my dear juz ,this fundamental question and that is if foregin settled kashmiri are hurt in number of ways what is local kashmiri pandit convert doing with them.
Hi Bilhan,
Pardon me but I am bit lost here courtesy your latest comments – As always there is absolutely no connect between what ordinary thoughts I have posted as the main thread and the brilliant piece you have contributed. May be you should focus on penning some bestsellers.
Foreign settled people like Geelani, Jeelani and Khans – Why are we talking about them – If they are settled outside I wonder what impact they can make or are making with their utterances.
Next you jump to Kashmiri converts – For God’s sake could you please face the reality – The reality is the people converted wilfully and once they did so, there is no need to constantly harp on the conversion.
My ancestors may have belonged to a different faith than what I believe in, that doesn’t mean you have to always remind me of that. Is this all you can come up with. I have many Pandit friends whom I would listen to everytime they speak for they don’t indulge in these nonsensical yarns. Even if I do not agree with every word they speak, yet I would listen to them.
Keep your thoughts coming – We need people like you and may be you too need countless ordinary souls like us. After all aren’t we all from the womb of Moji Kasheer. How can we be different? If you can gel with a Delhi-ite and I can be friends with a Yankee, isn’t it ironical a Kashmiri Muslim and a Kashmiri Pandit (who have done no harm to each other) feel its their national and religious duty to hate the other.
This blog is so popular, probably because it belongs to a KM and related to KPs. I have gone through all the above postings for several days, but I see it getting nowhere.
All new generation KP born after 1990 dont care about what happens to kashmir. For them it is another state of India causing internal trouble. And those KMs born after 1990 believe what they are seeing and hearing inside valley. Most of them should believe that India is an oppressor and they should fight for their freedom. Perfectly valid!
You and me who have witnessed the time before and after 1990 are thinking about what happened and what went wrong. what should we do blah blah.
Most of the KPs are still in touch with their old childhood KM friends who they believe are good people (of the same generation). Just see any social networking site(orkut etc), A KM is stilll a friend of a KP. We still love them, but we hate the KM in general. We will ALWAYS blame KM for our plight, however long we discuss in any blog.
My opinion is that this blog gave a vent to many KPs for posting how bad they feel about KMs in general (not you or sajad, or bashir). but KPs are not really any significant for Kashmir anymore. We have learnt to continue with our lives and kashmir will just remain alive as a topic of political interest for us.
So going with your “let bygones be bygones” agenda. I think you should more focus on what you (as KM) want to do with Kashmir. Or more specifically how to achieve Freedom from Indian Slavery. Obviously Kashmir is not integral part of India as India claims. Then there wouldn’t have been any 370 thingy over there. So you are right it is unjustly occupied and freedom is the need of the hour. IT is another matter what you will do after freedom. Pakistan is still struggling to be independent after 60 years of independence. But as long as Kashmir becomes better than pre 1990 after it gains freedom, that is what we all want.
Probably you should start a discussion for inviting ideas as to how to achieve that freedom and KPs can participate in it ( I mean just the discussion). Some points that can help is – unity among you people. Civil disobedience, Economic sanctions against India. Self reliance etc etc.
Fighting with arms, killing innocent people will not help. Nor is it a war where you can fight against CRPF or Army. For that matter relying on Pakistan wont help as you had done by renaming Anantnag to Islamabad. (It is childish, couldnt you have thought of a better name that pakistan’s capital!)
“Diamond Cuts Diamond”- Use Satyagraha to fight against India. For example. Why dont all of you just sit out peacefully on hunger strike till death in Lalchowk. You know how much International pressure will this generate! There are so many other innovative ideas that can help you rather than looting your own people.
International community is not taking you seriously because it doesnt look like freedom movement so far, it started out wrongly with ousting and killing of KPs and still has no direction.
Probably someone will say that they dont need my advice how to fight for independence, but I would definitely want to see peace in that region, even though I dont mind even if Kashmir becomes a foreign country for us, because even if it is part of India, we still visit as tourists( Only difference will be a visa will be required after it gets Independent).
This blog is so much time consuming, I would rather stop. I just could not resist contributing something, hope you dont moderate.
Hi KP1 (I have to address you how you mentioned your name),
Thanks for visiting this blog and thanks for contributing. I would like to reply to some of your comments.
FIrst of all let me mention that the fact that you say this blog is popular humbles me. I never meant to be popular and I am not sure if I am exactly that – popular. I am just an ordinary Kashmiri who just wants to express his thoughts. These thoughts are just that – thoughts and claim no right to be the universal truth. And yes this post that you have commented upon relates to Pandits and others other issues on which I have penned my thoughts.
I have always avoided taking sides here, and I am sure I have not advocated freedom, secession anywhere in my posts / comments. To me the solution is not so black and white. It is a complicated problem and I have a feeling none of the proponents of whichever banner have clarity as to what the solution is. that is how it remains that – a masla.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, may I mention that as a Kashmiri I do not have any special affinity for Pakistan and no undue hatred of India either. We collectively have grievances which stem from how Kashmir and Kashmiris have been treated by Delhi for decades now. I am not sure if ever there comes a day where Pakistan can do us any good.
Peaceful march to Lal Chowk – Let me take you back to last year’s Anti land-grab agitation – The peace marches then were acknowledged even by neutral observers on the ground as well organised and disciplined – Read again the word “Disciplined”. And how the gov’t and security establishments were unnerved by this rare display can very easily be gauged by the fact that all attempts on orgranising such marches have been crushed by the powers-that-be. But still nothing works like that, only if you are allowed to. I do not see Omar Abdullah allowing Hurriyats such liberty for he knows what it will lead to.
I would hate to imagine such a day when the sons-of-soil (Kashmir) will need a permit to come to Tulmul to celebrate their festivals. Believe me such a solution will never be ideal. Two of my KP friends – Shyamji and Sumeerji – I don’t want to ever have to send an invitation to them for they would be visiting their own home.
Thanks once again for wishing peace returns to this troubled valley. May Almighty help us all.
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